Once again: the reason for a private forum

[rewind]

I'm sorry, cassa, but with all due respect, I'd like to comment on your post:

"Respect of artists livelihood is not eroded by the exchange of mp3's which are totally for evaluation purposes only."

WHAT????? Evaluation purposes???!!!! I think downloaders are not just "evaluating," but also "keeping," "trading" and "beefing up" their collection. Do you have any data that shows downloaders are "returning" the mp3 to its rightful owner (the publisher/writer/artist) if their "evaluation" results are sub-par?

Have no illusions - when you download a song without compensating for it, someone somewhere is losing potential commercial benefits. How do you know if the artist behind that extremely obscure single isn't planning to release a "Best Of" compilation, or preparing to license the song to a Retro:Active-type label? The artist may be starving and this is his only hope for making a few cents.

"Forums like this actually are the impetus to encourage one to spend money on the very artists!!!!!"

Prove it. YOU or I may seek out more from an artist we've just discovered, but 90% of the material made available here have been in response to a specific song request. Besides, the law is meant to protect an artist/writer's rights -- if they want to make samples available in the hopes of spurring interest in their catalog, there are plenty of opportunities on the Web to do it.

"Having a digitalised version is not quite the same as the smell, touch or feel of vinyl, tape or CD."

I agree. But there are hundreds of millions of people who obviously don't. And there's a whole new generation out there who don't even know what vinyl, tape or CD's are. And could care less.

"Of all forums around this one should in reality not suffer from a guilt complex, after all I don't see any mp3's of Metalllica available for download."

FLASH: Metallica isn't the only group that's illegal to download for free. It's also illegal to download Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, Pet Shop Boys... It's true, look it up.

And, frankly, I wouldn't feel so guilty about downloading Metallica -- they'll still be able to drive expensive cars tomorrow. But the law is the law; maybe that obscure one-off we download IS depriving an artist his due.

Look, I'm not trying to be holier than thou. To be sure, I've downloaded hard to find songs myself, saved them to my harddrive and eventually burned them to disc. But please, you CANNOT justify these acts from a legal -- or ethical -- standpoint. Would an obscure artist be proud to have his one-hit-wonder shared here? Maybe. But it's his call, not ours.

[cassa]

3 words "Freedom of Choice"

Log off now..I bet you can't.[?]

Faithless In Faith We Must Behold The Things We See.....

[cassa]

An afterthought...
Maybe "you send it" and "rapidshare" etc are fronts for the music companies to list all emails that have "shared" illegal mp3 files??????????
....afterall who funds these sites?[:(!]

Faithless In Faith We Must Behold The Things We See.....

[marie3]

I happen to be one of those people who have bought cds after listening to a song or group that I have discovered here on the outpost.
I don't know if I am the norm or not. [:)]

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by rewind[/i]
<br>I'm sorry, cassa, but with all due respect, I'd like to comment on your post:

"Respect of artists livelihood is not eroded by the exchange of mp3's which are totally for evaluation purposes only."

WHAT????? Evaluation purposes???!!!! I think downloaders are not just "evaluating," but also "keeping," "trading" and "beefing up" their collection. Do you have any data that shows downloaders are "returning" the mp3 to its rightful owner (the publisher/writer/artist) if their "evaluation" results are sub-par?

Have no illusions - when you download a song without compensating for it, someone somewhere is losing potential commercial benefits. How do you know if the artist behind that extremely obscure single isn't planning to release a "Best Of" compilation, or preparing to license the song to a Retro:Active-type label? The artist may be starving and this is his only hope for making a few cents.

"Forums like this actually are the impetus to encourage one to spend money on the very artists!!!!!"

Prove it. YOU or I may seek out more from an artist we've just discovered, but 90% of the material made available here have been in response to a specific song request. Besides, the law is meant to protect an artist/writer's rights -- if they want to make samples available in the hopes of spurring interest in their catalog, there are plenty of opportunities on the Web to do it.

"Having a digitalised version is not quite the same as the smell, touch or feel of vinyl, tape or CD."

I agree. But there are hundreds of millions of people who obviously don't. And there's a whole new generation out there who don't even know what vinyl, tape or CD's are. And could care less.

"Of all forums around this one should in reality not suffer from a guilt complex, after all I don't see any mp3's of Metalllica available for download."

FLASH: Metallica isn't the only group that's illegal to download for free. It's also illegal to download Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, Pet Shop Boys... It's true, look it up.

And, frankly, I wouldn't feel so guilty about downloading Metallica -- they'll still be able to drive expensive cars tomorrow. But the law is the law; maybe that obscure one-off we download IS depriving an artist his due.

Look, I'm not trying to be holier than thou. To be sure, I've downloaded hard to find songs myself, saved them to my harddrive and eventually burned them to disc. But please, you CANNOT justify these acts from a legal -- or ethical -- standpoint. Would an obscure artist be proud to have his one-hit-wonder shared here? Maybe. But it's his call, not ours.





[/quote]

Good responses rewind, I feel the same way.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/eight.gif"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/number6.gif">

[raserx]

I have no problem ,ethically or otherwise,sharing music here or anywhere else. I had absolutely NO intention of ever buying any of the songs shared here on NWO. How does the artist lose money I wasn't spending anyway? For me, this is just another example of personal freedoms being chipped away by yet another watchdog agency.

I understand the arguments to the contrary, I just disagree.

[rewind]

raserx wrote:

"I had absolutely NO intention of ever buying any of the songs shared here on NWO. How does the artist lose money I wasn't spending anyway?"

That's a fascinating piece of logic, raserx. Next time I go into a supermarket for groceries, I'll just announce I have no intention of paying for the goods -- so you might as well give them to me for free; the farmers weren't going to get my money anyway. Zero sum game!

Unfortunately, without the hope of ever selling a song, there would be absolutley no motivation for an artist to make commercial music. If everyone felt the way you do, how long do you think it would be before the well dried up completely?

"For me, this is just another example of personal freedoms being chipped away by yet another watchdog agency."

Here in the United States -- in fact, in most civilized countries -- stealing is not considered a personal freedom.

[Plastik44]

[quote][i]Originally posted by rewind[/i]
<br>raserx wrote:

"I had absolutely NO intention of ever buying any of the songs shared here on NWO. How does the artist lose money I wasn't spending anyway?"

That's a fascinating piece of logic, raserx. Next time I go into a supermarket for groceries, I'll just announce I have no intention of paying for the goods -- so you might as well give them to me for free; the farmers weren't going to get my money anyway. Zero sum game!

Unfortunately, without the hope of ever selling a song, there would be absolutley no motivation for an artist to make commercial music. If everyone felt the way you do, how long do you think it would be before the well dried up completely?

"For me, this is just another example of personal freedoms being chipped away by yet another watchdog agency."

Here in the United States -- in fact, in most civilized countries -- stealing is not considered a personal freedom.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

[raserx]

Sorry, the "songs as groceries" analogy isn't doing it for me. My point is that I don't believe sharing music is stealing. There are many ways to enjoy a song without ever having bought it. You can hear it on the radio....is that stealing it? You can hear it at a club...the DJ bought it, not you...is that stealing it. You can hear it blaring from your neighbors car....he bought the CD,not you...now is that stealing? So I hear it coming out of my computer...so THAT's stealing it? Is stealing when I press the PLAY button as opposed to the DJ pressing the PLAY button? A cover band plays it in a bar...are they stealing it?? I bought a box of records at a garage sale for 5 bucks where do I send the royalties?
All the music shared here WAS purchased at some point by somebody who decided then to send it to someone else. My right to send it to you, ...burn it,.... or play frisbee with it is what I'm talking about. I appreciate and understand the points of view expressed here ,but I disagree. Luckily, I live in the USA and have the right to do that ,don't I ?

[tiger_mn]

Not to sound like a heavy-handed asshole, but:


"You can hear it on the radio....is that stealing it? You can hear it at a club...the DJ bought it, not you...is that stealing it. You can hear it blaring from your neighbors car....he bought the CD,not you...now is that stealing? So I hear it coming out of my computer...so THAT's stealing it? Is stealing when I press the PLAY button as opposed to the DJ pressing the PLAY button?"

Terribly weak argument. The Radio, DJ, or your neighbor aren't offering the song up for you take personal possession of it.

"My right to send it to you, ...burn it,.... or play frisbee with it is what I'm talking about. I appreciate and understand the points of view expressed here ,but I disagree. Luckily, I live in the USA and have the right to do that ,don't I ?"

You can give me the CD. You can play frisbee with the CD. But you can't make a copy of it for distribution, not even for one person. As was stated earlier, copyright infringement is not a right.

[Plastik44]

Do as you please. I really wish I'd be so lucky to live in the US, then I wouldn't have to envy you all the time.[:D]
Oh yeah, before I forget that. I know it's just a remark by an underprivilleged member of the Restworld, but:
The DJ should have paid for the record at some point and his employer (the club or whatever) for the royalties for what he plays (In Germany its a certain amount depending on how long the club is open, how many DJs there are, etc). The same with radio. If you really think it's no difference, go and record the music with a microphone when your neighbour plays his record. You'll be amazed...
Also, the music doesn't simply come out of your PC. If you happen to listen sometjing good in a club or on the radio it is by accident. It would be very hard to record it in a similar quality under such circumstances. All those who taped their music from radio programmes in the 80s know how difficult it was to get the song from beginning to end without some DJ's blah blah blah, not to mention all other problems with the quality - and even that was considered theft.
To come back to the grocery store example: only because you watched some people having dinner or were invited to dinner once or twice doesn't mean that you are entitled to every dinner in the world without paying for it or its ingredients.[;)]

I'm off.

[raserx]

What??!!??Talk about weak arguments!!Ahhh...yes, the government had end users in mind when the laws were drawn up for copyright infringement. That's why every home stereo in America for the past 30 years has a double cassette deck built into it.Every person who ever recorded an LP , dubbed a cassette or recorded a song off the radio is guilty of copyright infringement by your definition. Why allow recordable media at all here in the United States...or any other "civilized nation".Quick ...storm the Memorex building & recoup all the lost royalties!

Well , you guys enjoy your guilt...I'm gonna listen to Barbie & the Kens ,..which was sent to me by a fellow criminal here on the NWO.[;)]

[randy]

Just a simple note--I have bought cd's from artist's that I had never heard before ILLEGALLY obtaining a song or two.[:D]

[madman]

[quote][i]Originally posted by raserx[/i]
Why allow recordable media at all here in the United States...or any other "civilized nation".Quick ...storm the Memorex building & recoup all the lost royalties!
[/quote]

If I recall correctly, the price of all blank media sold in the US has a "royalty" built into it. Someone can verify/disprove this, I'm sure.

[Plastik44]

A few days ago I thought it was worth continuing the debate and ignored newwavepop's post. Now I know he was right:
it sounds like hall monitors arguing with each other.

Boooooooooorrrrriiiiinnnnnng!