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Master tapes or mastered from vinyl?

Discussions about vinyl records: rarities, obscurities and collectibles, promos, mixes, etc. DJ-related discussions are welcome as well as techniques for recording & restoring vinyl records to CD/MP3.

Postby Bitter Almonds » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:42 am

Interesting points. I'm as pedestrian as someone can get on this issue. I'm not a sound engineer, so fukken 'ey - bring forth the musak and the mead[}:)]
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Postby fiftypercent » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:43 pm

[quote][i]Originally posted by Spaz[/i]
<br>Rubellen,

Then put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself! I have never heard any of your digital transfers, but I'm sure that they're great (or maybe I have...which Cherry Red ones did you do?)

The story behind my digital transfering of the Sal Solo CD (which you are glad to tell everyone is bad) is this: I personally gave a copy to Sal. He contacted me a week or so later and told me that the masters could not be found and he wanted to submit MY copy to Cherry Red (although he wasn't sure of the bonus tracks. I convinced him to keep at least Adoramus Te' and 'Just A Feeling'...he supplied the other three). It was NOT created for anything but personal use. The artist himself was very happy with it and told me that I had provided a great service to his fans. That alone is good enough for me. I apologize that you are not happy with it and maybe you could have done a better job with it than I did. But it doesn't matter anymore. Simply enjoy your own transfers, don't buy the ones that are transferred from vinyl and stop complaining.



SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
[/quote]
Man, I've been waiting [i]years[/i] for this release. Frankly, I didn't think it would ever be done. The original album was hardly a million-seller, even back in 1985. So speaking as a fan, a non-audiophile, and a CD collector nut, thank you so much. It will be great to have an officially released product that I can treasure for ever. Glad you got "Just A Feeling" on there too. Great job!
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Postby yipyipcoyote » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:50 pm

[quote]Originally posted by Spaz
[br]And for argument's sake, let's just assume that it is a good or even great digital transfer from vinyl including bonus tracks, liner notes, etc.


Would you purchase this CD?[/quote]That is quite an assumption to make when most of the time they don't even tell you what the source is. It's like you just have to try your luck. Wanna spend $15 on a CD and find out if it's a good (vinyl) transfer or not? Sure, why not.

I agree wholeheartedly with Grunch - that the source should be prominently stated in the press release and on the outside package etc. Just like the recent Portion Control Archive 4CD boxset. At least they are very honest about it on their web site.
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Postby DrewTheEngineer » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:21 pm

There's an additional complication that a lot of magnetic tape can't be played if it's too old. Unlike vinyl, which if stored correctly can keep the quality of when it was pressed, magnetic tape deteriorates over time and some tapes even as young as 10 yrs will not play without shedding the tape oxide. There are even services that will treat the tape by baking and silicone but even then you get maybe 1 or 2 plays before the quality drops. So it's possible that the only extant copy of the music as mixed is on vinyl.

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Postby Grunch » Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:06 pm

That's ok, Drew. Just that if their only viable source is vinyl, and they are not going to make the effort (cost or whatever their reason) they should just indicate that on the product or site to allow consumers to make the choice if this is okay for them, since they may have their own CD-R and are just hoping to upgrade to a better sound. No one should complain how it is made, as long as it is stated for the consumer to make the choice.
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Postby DavePlym » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:11 pm

I found on quite a few 12" mix comps from around the world that tracks
come from vinyl and I think one issue not really considered is the source itself. If the vinyl is in poor condition, hunt ebay/gemm etc and source a mint/near mint copy. The other snag when vinyl tracks are used is the equiptment used - which doesn't have to cost millions.
Cheap needles do it for me, I hate the 'ssss' you can get on words beginning with 's'. Personally I tried about a dozen needled before settling on the ortofon 20 (appx $75), I've got a Pro-ject Expression turntable, through a Pioneer equalizer, Marantz apm and Philips CDR.
I'm now happy with the sound as my biggest criticism with released cds sourced from vinyl is that the noise/pops etc are taken out but so is the life in the music, gone is the crispness and depth. instead, the muddy sound comes only from the middle of the speakers rather than filling the room. Sorry to waffle (well, I am English u know!)but even with a limited budget, if you use reasonable kit to t/f
from vinyl to cd and CLEANED records (wash'em, brush 'em get the Isopropanol out) people can end up with a CD to smile about.
Luv from Devon, UK
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Postby Panorama » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:15 am

[quote][i]Originally posted by Spaz[/i]
if it's such a big deal, take this issue to Congress. Have the Supreme Court and the President make it their main topic for 2007.[/quote]I would, but everytime I bring it up, they say, "Sorry, we're trying to ban Gay Marriage over here, and it will have to wait." [:D][;)]

---------------------------
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Postby Ollie Stench » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:21 am

I wouldn't because chances are I've already got it on vinyl. I could rip the record I have already paid for and save myself $12-$18 in the process.

If it's something hyper obscure where the original vinyl is way out of my price range then I probably would and already have. All the Killed By Death comps are from vinyl. Alot if not all of the Post Punk comps are from vinyl (So Young But So Cold, Nao Wave, Sex LIfe Of Savages, Can't Stop It, New Deutsch).
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Postby obs » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:59 pm

No thanks. I would just download/copy it. If it's one of my favourite groups, I would assume I already have a vinyl versions of the tracks. Why pay twice for what is essentially the same shit?
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Postby newwavepunkgirl » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:03 am

I never knew they could do that, i thought it always came from masters? Actually I haven't thought about that til now. If you really want an album you'd buy it anyhow I reckon.

Devolution is real
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Postby Rubellan » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:55 am

DVD quality is another one of those areas in which certain companies will take shortcuts. A couple of years ago I purchased the 1978 film "Magic" as an import DVD on eBay. Though it was a factory pressed DVD from Japan, it was mastered not using a VHS tape, but using a 3/4" master for the VHS tape production. This meant it had a sharper picture than a VHS, though it had tape glitches and the poor color/contrast of the original transfer 20+ years ago. The film was just reissued in the U.S. with a beautiful new transfer.
I'm seeing more and more of this kind of stuff with other indie DVD labels that are popping up overnight.
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Postby Spaz » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:11 pm

[quote][i]Originally posted by SomebodySomewhere[/i]
<br>I admit to having no knowledge of the costs involved at putting a CD release together -- and I honestly don't care to. Whatever they save, however it will prevent them from going into the black, I don't give a toss. [/quote]

Let's put it this way....the difference in costs between master tapes and vinyl for an indie label is the difference between it getting re-issued on CD or not getting reissued on CD!

If someone doesn't own the Expression or Passion Puppets or whoever and has a choice between buying a used LP and a bunch of 7" singles (for the b-sides) and paying $45 dollars for all of it off of Ebay or Gemm, why not get the CD for $15 even if it's mastered from vinyl. As Rubellan pointed out a few days ago, there are things like Eyeless in Gaza which are piss-poor mono mp3 quality recordings (which is horrific just to think about) and then there are things that may not have been in the best shape possible but the label tried to work with what they had.

I don't mind you NOT wanting to buy stuff mastered from vinyl and your reasons are valid, but calling the Expression CDs 'really bad' is over doing it in my opinion. 'Not great' is negative but less harsh.


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Postby yipyipcoyote » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:49 pm

ohmygosh even Passion Puppets is MFV? It's not great, but not really bad [:o)]

However, the band itself is mediocre at best. Should have chosen something more interesting to reissue, like Electric Guitars.
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Postby Spaz » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:13 pm

[quote][i]Originally posted by yipyipcoyote[/i]
<br>ohmygosh even Passion Puppets is MFV? It's not great, but not really bad [:o)]
[/quote]

Once again, the music was supplied by the licensing house that allowed Almacantar to put it out. "Powder Monkeys" took nearly 5 hours to clean up but the album itself and a few of the b-sides were definitely from some kind of existing tape, be it a 2-track stereo master or whatever.

Personally, whether or not I have a hand in a release, I'm perfectly happy if it sounds fine. I can see a problem if there are skips, loud pops, etc. but I think that folks are being too critical. Captain Oi is one of my fave labels of all time and 95% of the time, it's from vinyl. Small punk labels didn't think of keeping master tapes or they wouldn't let Cappy Oi use them, whatever. As long as the noise is not intrusive, then I'm OK with vinyl transfers. They save me plenty of time on doing them myself!

Speaking of doing things myself, a Rhino big wig and iTunes big wig have me transferring their personal record collections to CD. If they are happy with them, then I'm fine with that. None of this will ever be used by Rhino or iTunes, so you don't have to worry! It's for their personal use only!


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Postby newwavepunkgirl » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:27 pm

[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>DVD quality is another one of those areas in which certain companies will take shortcuts. A couple of years ago I purchased the 1978 film "Magic" as an import DVD on eBay. Though it was a factory pressed DVD from Japan, it was mastered not using a VHS tape, but using a 3/4" master for the VHS tape production. This meant it had a sharper picture than a VHS, though it had tape glitches and the poor color/contrast of the original transfer 20+ years ago. The film was just reissued in the U.S. with a beautiful new transfer.
I'm seeing more and more of this kind of stuff with other indie DVD labels that are popping up overnight.
[/quote]

I think ti's more annoying with film because that's where if the quality sucks your stuck! Nothing worse than watching a crakly old video! [:(!]

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