Supposing you had a chance to buy an official CD reissue of one of your favorite '80s albums of all time but you heard that it was mastered from vinyl. And for argument's sake, let's just assume that it is a good or even great digital transfer from vinyl including bonus tracks, liner notes, etc.
Would you purchase this CD?
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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Master tapes or mastered from vinyl?
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Master tapes or mastered from vinyl?
by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:00 am
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by pinkyblue82 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:03 am
Great idea for a poll and I believe the results will settle this argument once and for all. I commend you on making some very valid points on this topic.
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by Rubellan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:41 am
The key words here are "good" and "great". That's rarely the case. You should add the selection of:
If the label could use the masters, but chose to remaster from vinyl to save a few $$, would you still buy it?
If the label could use the masters, but chose to remaster from vinyl to save a few $$, would you still buy it?
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by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:54 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>The key words here are "good" and "great". That's rarely the case. You should add the selection of:
If the label could use the masters, but chose to remaster from vinyl to save a few $$, would you still buy it?
[/quote]
For chrisakes, get over it. The cost between using vinyl and the original masters is roughly $10,000 minimum. If you have a label that doesn't make that much profit in a year, then it doesn't make sense.
Instead of spending your time moaning and complaining, do something about it. Either do it yourself or, if it's such a big deal, take this issue to Congress. Have the Supreme Court and the President make it their main topic for 2007. Perhaps you can even make it illegal to release CDs that are mastered from vinyl. And then no-one will ever get to hear some of this great stuff that has been lost due to mishandling, flooding, mislabeling, fire, etc.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
<br>The key words here are "good" and "great". That's rarely the case. You should add the selection of:
If the label could use the masters, but chose to remaster from vinyl to save a few $$, would you still buy it?
[/quote]
For chrisakes, get over it. The cost between using vinyl and the original masters is roughly $10,000 minimum. If you have a label that doesn't make that much profit in a year, then it doesn't make sense.
Instead of spending your time moaning and complaining, do something about it. Either do it yourself or, if it's such a big deal, take this issue to Congress. Have the Supreme Court and the President make it their main topic for 2007. Perhaps you can even make it illegal to release CDs that are mastered from vinyl. And then no-one will ever get to hear some of this great stuff that has been lost due to mishandling, flooding, mislabeling, fire, etc.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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by Rubellan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:28 am
-The cost between using vinyl and the original masters is roughly $10,000 minimum.-
That is total BS. As I have found, the indie labels will often use independent Sound Engineers to do the mastering. I know what Cherry Red paid to have a master created, from tapes or vinyl, and you have about two too many zeros on that number. The top facilities, used by most major labels, will charge in the range of $600-$1000 per CD master. The TOP facilities.
A CD license in the UK from some major labels costs roughly $3500-$4000, which is considerably lower than the U.S. The license usually includes the source material, and sometimes even the master creation.
That is total BS. As I have found, the indie labels will often use independent Sound Engineers to do the mastering. I know what Cherry Red paid to have a master created, from tapes or vinyl, and you have about two too many zeros on that number. The top facilities, used by most major labels, will charge in the range of $600-$1000 per CD master. The TOP facilities.
A CD license in the UK from some major labels costs roughly $3500-$4000, which is considerably lower than the U.S. The license usually includes the source material, and sometimes even the master creation.
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by Grunch » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:45 am
Spaz, why can;t people have their issues with poor quality releases? The rap is that they don't informa the consmuer, you find out when you listen. I don;t care if they master it with screeching, nasty scratches, that's up to them who cares. I just want to know what I am getting BEFORE I pay, not after I have paid. What is so terribly wrong with a little honesty, and just advertising on the outer package, or on the websites where sold, that it is mastered from such and such source, and includes pops, clicks, etc.......no one is saying they have no right to do this.
Let's say you advertise right on here that you are selling you original CD copy of some extremely rare 80s new wave disc, way out of print, etc........people anxiously attempt to purchase it from you, someone pays the price you are seeking, then they get it in the mail and it is beat to hell, disc and artwork. I guess the buyer just has to live with it??? Same with retail, just be up front when you know you are marketing something that you clearly know is not the greatest quality.
As for vinyl versus tapes for mastering, I don't care, as long as the sound is excellent, there is no vinyl noise, no tape hiss, etc.....unless these limitations are expressly stated, and I choose to purchase anyway. And, maybe you are just not this way, but I expect to get what I pay for, and I am guessing almost anyone, when purchasing a new CD, expects it to sound pretty damn good in this day and age. Have you never opted to not bid on a CD or LP on ebay when you read the quality was maybe marginal, well why should retail be any different?? Geez, I guess shitty production on some CD's, we should lick the record company's asshole for the privilege to buy it just the same, since they did us a favor.
Let's say you advertise right on here that you are selling you original CD copy of some extremely rare 80s new wave disc, way out of print, etc........people anxiously attempt to purchase it from you, someone pays the price you are seeking, then they get it in the mail and it is beat to hell, disc and artwork. I guess the buyer just has to live with it??? Same with retail, just be up front when you know you are marketing something that you clearly know is not the greatest quality.
As for vinyl versus tapes for mastering, I don't care, as long as the sound is excellent, there is no vinyl noise, no tape hiss, etc.....unless these limitations are expressly stated, and I choose to purchase anyway. And, maybe you are just not this way, but I expect to get what I pay for, and I am guessing almost anyone, when purchasing a new CD, expects it to sound pretty damn good in this day and age. Have you never opted to not bid on a CD or LP on ebay when you read the quality was maybe marginal, well why should retail be any different?? Geez, I guess shitty production on some CD's, we should lick the record company's asshole for the privilege to buy it just the same, since they did us a favor.
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by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:23 am
Rubellen,
Then put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself! I have never heard any of your digital transfers, but I'm sure that they're great (or maybe I have...which Cherry Red ones did you do?)
The story behind my digital transfering of the Sal Solo CD (which you are glad to tell everyone is bad) is this: I personally gave a copy to Sal. He contacted me a week or so later and told me that the masters could not be found and he wanted to submit MY copy to Cherry Red (although he wasn't sure of the bonus tracks. I convinced him to keep at least Adoramus Te' and 'Just A Feeling'...he supplied the other three). It was NOT created for anything but personal use. The artist himself was very happy with it and told me that I had provided a great service to his fans. That alone is good enough for me. I apologize that you are not happy with it and maybe you could have done a better job with it than I did. But it doesn't matter anymore. Simply enjoy your own transfers, don't buy the ones that are transferred from vinyl and stop complaining.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
Then put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself! I have never heard any of your digital transfers, but I'm sure that they're great (or maybe I have...which Cherry Red ones did you do?)
The story behind my digital transfering of the Sal Solo CD (which you are glad to tell everyone is bad) is this: I personally gave a copy to Sal. He contacted me a week or so later and told me that the masters could not be found and he wanted to submit MY copy to Cherry Red (although he wasn't sure of the bonus tracks. I convinced him to keep at least Adoramus Te' and 'Just A Feeling'...he supplied the other three). It was NOT created for anything but personal use. The artist himself was very happy with it and told me that I had provided a great service to his fans. That alone is good enough for me. I apologize that you are not happy with it and maybe you could have done a better job with it than I did. But it doesn't matter anymore. Simply enjoy your own transfers, don't buy the ones that are transferred from vinyl and stop complaining.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:28 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Grunch[/i]
<br>Spaz, why can;t people have their issues with poor quality releases? [/quote]
Having issues is one thing, having a personal vendetta is another. Sure, we all have our opinions. I think that the Cowboys Internatonal CD was one of the worst transfers ever. I was appalled and haven't played it since that first time I recieved it in the mail a few years back.
The issue here is let people know about your opinions, but don't personally rip others apart if they are happy with them.
Let the cattle continue to graze...
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
<br>Spaz, why can;t people have their issues with poor quality releases? [/quote]
Having issues is one thing, having a personal vendetta is another. Sure, we all have our opinions. I think that the Cowboys Internatonal CD was one of the worst transfers ever. I was appalled and haven't played it since that first time I recieved it in the mail a few years back.
The issue here is let people know about your opinions, but don't personally rip others apart if they are happy with them.
Let the cattle continue to graze...
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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by Grunch » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:16 am
I've never ripped anyone for enjoying any release. What sounds horrific to me may sound great to you, and vice versa, to each their own. You can own and listen to whatever you wish, whatever quality, but for my hard earned money, when I buy a new CD, I hope for it to sound good.
By the way, I've purchased only a small handful of poor quality discs, fortunately. It just irks me when I get them, and come to find they are chock full of pops and clicks. Yes, it is A-OK if the artist bought off on the final pressing, but I somehow still believe they should just let their unsuspecting buyers know that perhaps they were not able to master it as well as they'd like, or whatever. Just don't take buyers money and expect they have to live with what you decided was good enough for them. Let them decide before they hand over the money. I will NEVER complain about any CD quality for one I don't buy, or willingly buy knowing what I am getting.
By the way, I've purchased only a small handful of poor quality discs, fortunately. It just irks me when I get them, and come to find they are chock full of pops and clicks. Yes, it is A-OK if the artist bought off on the final pressing, but I somehow still believe they should just let their unsuspecting buyers know that perhaps they were not able to master it as well as they'd like, or whatever. Just don't take buyers money and expect they have to live with what you decided was good enough for them. Let them decide before they hand over the money. I will NEVER complain about any CD quality for one I don't buy, or willingly buy knowing what I am getting.
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by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:23 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>-A CD license in the UK from some major labels costs roughly $3500-$4000, which is considerably lower than the U.S. The license usually includes the source material, and sometimes even the master creation.[/quote]
If a label recieves any masters, more than likely it's the 2 track stereo LP mixdown tapes, not the 16/24/32 track masters. That mixdown master was the original tape used for the original vinyl pressing, not the MASTER tape, which was used to create the mixdown tapes. Sure, I'd prefer the mixdown tape over the vinyl transfer anyday, but sometimes it's just not possible.
Record labels have gone through much downsizing in the last 20 years. This is not just the employees, but also the facilities that manufactured the music, the in-house studios, etc. Things get lost when you clean house. I'm sure we've all thrown things away that, in 10 years time, were worth a small fortune. The record labels are the same way. They lose or dump things that mean so much to us but mean nothing to them.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
<br>-A CD license in the UK from some major labels costs roughly $3500-$4000, which is considerably lower than the U.S. The license usually includes the source material, and sometimes even the master creation.[/quote]
If a label recieves any masters, more than likely it's the 2 track stereo LP mixdown tapes, not the 16/24/32 track masters. That mixdown master was the original tape used for the original vinyl pressing, not the MASTER tape, which was used to create the mixdown tapes. Sure, I'd prefer the mixdown tape over the vinyl transfer anyday, but sometimes it's just not possible.
Record labels have gone through much downsizing in the last 20 years. This is not just the employees, but also the facilities that manufactured the music, the in-house studios, etc. Things get lost when you clean house. I'm sure we've all thrown things away that, in 10 years time, were worth a small fortune. The record labels are the same way. They lose or dump things that mean so much to us but mean nothing to them.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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by Rubellan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:25 am
This was not originally a personal issue aimed at anyone, more so than at the recording industry in general. Though many times an outspoken opinion is often met with resistance. I'd like us to be able to respect anyone's opinions on these subjects, and post our thoughts without fear of attack (though I'm already aware of some who would rather respond to me personally by e-mail than face the possible wrath here).
As stated, I originally had no intention of commenting on the remaster of Heart and Soul, mainly because I knew it was done by another person in this community, and I thought it would be rude and personal. The review only came after... well, after things got rude and personal. I've gone ahead and deleted that portion of my original message. It will now be up for the individual to decide, other than those who saw my original comments before I removed them.
I did not purchase the Cowboys International CD after I heard the sound samples online. I could hear all of the vinyl noise, and knew it would not be worth it. Ironically enough, I just did a brand new remaster of the Ken Lockie solo album "The Impossible". It is in his hands now, waiting for approval, and may be available soon on a label who most people here are familiar with. The master took three solid days to remaster 12 songs, since master tapes are not available.
These are the CD's I've done for Cherry Red, though only two are available at this time:
Artery-Into The Garden (Tracks 1, 2 and 17 are from vinyl. The others were sent to me as flat transfers from the masters, and I had a lot of work to do to get everything clean and pretty).
Toyah-Mayhem (I provided the 2nd pressing).
Eyeless In Gaza-Sixth Sense (This CD was notorious for being terrible quality, completely compressed to mono sound and poor vinyl remastering. I provided a brand new stereo remaster, though it hasn't gone to production because there was still left over stock to move first).
Mobiles-Drowning in Berlin: The Best of the Mobiles (Not yet released)
(I view this as my crowning achievement. I even managed to include two songs from an unreleased 7" single which only exists on white label test pressings. A gracious fan from Germany allowed me access to his copy, and will be thanked in the CD credits. One of these rare songs, "Don't pay the axeman", literally took me 4 hours to remaster. It was a long song pressed at a low volume on a 7" single. There was LOTS of noise to remove, but I did it all carefully and cleanly)
As stated, I originally had no intention of commenting on the remaster of Heart and Soul, mainly because I knew it was done by another person in this community, and I thought it would be rude and personal. The review only came after... well, after things got rude and personal. I've gone ahead and deleted that portion of my original message. It will now be up for the individual to decide, other than those who saw my original comments before I removed them.
I did not purchase the Cowboys International CD after I heard the sound samples online. I could hear all of the vinyl noise, and knew it would not be worth it. Ironically enough, I just did a brand new remaster of the Ken Lockie solo album "The Impossible". It is in his hands now, waiting for approval, and may be available soon on a label who most people here are familiar with. The master took three solid days to remaster 12 songs, since master tapes are not available.
These are the CD's I've done for Cherry Red, though only two are available at this time:
Artery-Into The Garden (Tracks 1, 2 and 17 are from vinyl. The others were sent to me as flat transfers from the masters, and I had a lot of work to do to get everything clean and pretty).
Toyah-Mayhem (I provided the 2nd pressing).
Eyeless In Gaza-Sixth Sense (This CD was notorious for being terrible quality, completely compressed to mono sound and poor vinyl remastering. I provided a brand new stereo remaster, though it hasn't gone to production because there was still left over stock to move first).
Mobiles-Drowning in Berlin: The Best of the Mobiles (Not yet released)
(I view this as my crowning achievement. I even managed to include two songs from an unreleased 7" single which only exists on white label test pressings. A gracious fan from Germany allowed me access to his copy, and will be thanked in the CD credits. One of these rare songs, "Don't pay the axeman", literally took me 4 hours to remaster. It was a long song pressed at a low volume on a 7" single. There was LOTS of noise to remove, but I did it all carefully and cleanly)
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by Spaz » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:53 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>This was not originally a personal issue aimed at anyone, more so than at the recording industry in general. [/quote]
If a major label releases a crappy vinyl transfer, then they deserve any badmouthing they get.
But the indies can't compete. They can't be Rhino (or Rhino Handmade) without the funds. And if we boycot these labels, then they'll never have the funding.
All I am saying is that labels like Almacantar, Captain Oi, Cherry Red, Superfecta and others are doing it because they are passionate about releasing the music. We should stand by them. Of course, if the mastering is really crappy, then by all means, let everyone know!
The problem with you and me is that we transfer stuff in our spare time. We know what to look for. Others don't. They are just happy to have it in a digital format. That doesn't make us better or worse, we just look at it from a different angle. If you are a musician (not sure?), then you'll look at something differently than a non-musicican. Not being a musician, I may love the song's melody or hook but you hate the way the guitar sounds, or the basslines aren't inventive, so you don't like it. We approach it differently, which alters our opinions.
BTW, that Artery CD is one that I'm planning on getting but haven't yet.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
<br>This was not originally a personal issue aimed at anyone, more so than at the recording industry in general. [/quote]
If a major label releases a crappy vinyl transfer, then they deserve any badmouthing they get.
But the indies can't compete. They can't be Rhino (or Rhino Handmade) without the funds. And if we boycot these labels, then they'll never have the funding.
All I am saying is that labels like Almacantar, Captain Oi, Cherry Red, Superfecta and others are doing it because they are passionate about releasing the music. We should stand by them. Of course, if the mastering is really crappy, then by all means, let everyone know!
The problem with you and me is that we transfer stuff in our spare time. We know what to look for. Others don't. They are just happy to have it in a digital format. That doesn't make us better or worse, we just look at it from a different angle. If you are a musician (not sure?), then you'll look at something differently than a non-musicican. Not being a musician, I may love the song's melody or hook but you hate the way the guitar sounds, or the basslines aren't inventive, so you don't like it. We approach it differently, which alters our opinions.
BTW, that Artery CD is one that I'm planning on getting but haven't yet.
SPAZ
Born of innocence. Free of ignorance.
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by Rokkr » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:21 am
I rip a lot of vinyl and I have to say unless the record is in rough shape, I'm hardly ever unhappy with the result.
I've compared some vinyl rips to CD and I'm willing to bet 99% of people couldn't tell the difference.
Of course those of you that can tell the frequency of a hummingbird's wing flaps might disagree.
I've compared some vinyl rips to CD and I'm willing to bet 99% of people couldn't tell the difference.
Of course those of you that can tell the frequency of a hummingbird's wing flaps might disagree.
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