A few have mentioned in this thread that education is the answer. I couldn't agree more. Even if it's just a remedial course teachng the value OF education itself. What helps perpetuates this cycle of ignorance though, is the lack of respect FOR education. When you have parents themselves who scorn or dismiss the educational system, they do their children a staggering injustice. You almost wish there was a nationwide sterilization program among those at the poverty level just to break the chain and start all over. Perhaps a mandatory education of some sort could go hand in hand with welfare programs? Is there anything like this already? I have no idea. But it wouldn't be all that different than an active job search which is mandatory for those receiving unemployment benefits. That's the way it is in the state of New York, at least.
This whole dialect barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me. If parents really care about the fufure of their children they'll just get out of whatever neighborhood island they're on. They need to get a whole new environment. My parents came here from another country - my father got a PHD and my mother a Masters, and both became teachers themselves. If they did it without ANY dialect of English than anybody can. And it's not like my parents were special. Here in New York, there are sooooo many families from other countries that do incredibly well. Chinese, Indian, Russian and so many others just do it.
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Most Divisive Issue?
by shovelbum » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:27 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>A few have mentioned in this thread that education is the answer. I couldn't agree more. Even if it's just a remedial course teachng the value OF education itself. What helps perpetuates this cycle of ignorance though, is the lack of respect FOR education. When you have parents themselves who scorn or dismiss the educational system, they do their children a staggering injustice. You almost wish there was a nationwide sterilization program among those at the poverty level just to break the chain and start all over. Perhaps a mandatory education of some sort could go hand in hand with welfare programs? Is there anything like this already? I have no idea. But it wouldn't be all that different than an active job search which is mandatory for those receiving unemployment benefits. That's the way it is in the state of New York, at least.
This whole dialect barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me. If parents really care about the fufure of their children they'll just get out of whatever neighborhood island they're on. They need to get a whole new environment. My parents came here from another country - my father got a PHD and my mother a Masters, and both became teachers themselves. If they did it without ANY dialect of English than anybody can. And it's not like my parents were special. Here in New York, there are sooooo many families from other countries that do incredibly well. Chinese, Indian, Russian and so many others just do it.
<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>
[/quote]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
<br>A few have mentioned in this thread that education is the answer. I couldn't agree more. Even if it's just a remedial course teachng the value OF education itself. What helps perpetuates this cycle of ignorance though, is the lack of respect FOR education. When you have parents themselves who scorn or dismiss the educational system, they do their children a staggering injustice. You almost wish there was a nationwide sterilization program among those at the poverty level just to break the chain and start all over. Perhaps a mandatory education of some sort could go hand in hand with welfare programs? Is there anything like this already? I have no idea. But it wouldn't be all that different than an active job search which is mandatory for those receiving unemployment benefits. That's the way it is in the state of New York, at least.
This whole dialect barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me. If parents really care about the fufure of their children they'll just get out of whatever neighborhood island they're on. They need to get a whole new environment. My parents came here from another country - my father got a PHD and my mother a Masters, and both became teachers themselves. If they did it without ANY dialect of English than anybody can. And it's not like my parents were special. Here in New York, there are sooooo many families from other countries that do incredibly well. Chinese, Indian, Russian and so many others just do it.
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[/quote]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
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by beatschool » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:31 am
Just to clarify, I was not using slavery as a justification for anything, nor did I intend for it to be used as an excuse for behavior, I was simply trying to point out the stupidity in the use of the word "victim". Relative to the examples I provided (somewhat sarcastically), if whites are, as Motors states, the predominant "victims" of racism today, I'd love an explanation of white victimhood as it relates to how other races have been victimized historically in the US. And providing an isolated example of a white victim is not what I'm looking for. I would like to see true evidence of racism strongly affecting the lives of white people. I could give a shit about someone's cousin Nancy or Fred that lost a job because of Affirmative Action. I'm looking for consistent evidence of this racism. My wife and daughter are white (as am I) so I really need Motors to enlighten me so I can protect my family. Not in 2015, but today.
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by shovelbum » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:41 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br> This whole dialect barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me. If parents really care about the fufure of their children they'll just get out of whatever neighborhood island they're on. They need to get a whole new environment. My parents came here from another country - my father got a PHD and my mother a Masters, and both became teachers themselves. If they did it without ANY dialect of English than anybody can. And it's not like my parents were special. Here in New York, there are sooooo many families from other countries that do incredibly well. Chinese, Indian, Russian and so many others just do it.
<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>
[/quote]
urgh, my computer is having hiccups. Sorry.
Marv, mandatory sterilization is just not gonna happen. Furthermore, it falls under the guidelines of "eugenics", which is an antiquated notion that we Americans developed in the early 1900's and was eventually adopted by Hitler. Eek. I do see that you are trying to solve a problem, though, and I'm glad that you so obviously care.[;)]
As for the dialect issue, it is very real and certainly a problem. Not all of the speakers of these dialects live on islands, but for the ones that do, getting off the island is a major milestone. How do you get off an island when you yourself were raised to speak only one language and have no money, family, or resources to help you? How do you leave that island and find a job and a home. What if you've never been off that island yourself and are terrified of how big and complicated the larger world seems? What if, because you WERE on that island your whole life, you have no idea how to conduct yourself in that larger, complicated world? What if your biggest problem is making sure that your rowboat doesn't get another hole in it, that you have enough firewood to heat your house in the winter, that you can feed your kids, and that your kids don't get sick because then you have to figure out how to get off that island to find some medical help that you can neither understand nor afford. Oh, and don't forget that your terrified another hurricane is going to come and wipe your house away.
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
<br> This whole dialect barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me. If parents really care about the fufure of their children they'll just get out of whatever neighborhood island they're on. They need to get a whole new environment. My parents came here from another country - my father got a PHD and my mother a Masters, and both became teachers themselves. If they did it without ANY dialect of English than anybody can. And it's not like my parents were special. Here in New York, there are sooooo many families from other countries that do incredibly well. Chinese, Indian, Russian and so many others just do it.
<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>
[/quote]
urgh, my computer is having hiccups. Sorry.
Marv, mandatory sterilization is just not gonna happen. Furthermore, it falls under the guidelines of "eugenics", which is an antiquated notion that we Americans developed in the early 1900's and was eventually adopted by Hitler. Eek. I do see that you are trying to solve a problem, though, and I'm glad that you so obviously care.[;)]
As for the dialect issue, it is very real and certainly a problem. Not all of the speakers of these dialects live on islands, but for the ones that do, getting off the island is a major milestone. How do you get off an island when you yourself were raised to speak only one language and have no money, family, or resources to help you? How do you leave that island and find a job and a home. What if you've never been off that island yourself and are terrified of how big and complicated the larger world seems? What if, because you WERE on that island your whole life, you have no idea how to conduct yourself in that larger, complicated world? What if your biggest problem is making sure that your rowboat doesn't get another hole in it, that you have enough firewood to heat your house in the winter, that you can feed your kids, and that your kids don't get sick because then you have to figure out how to get off that island to find some medical help that you can neither understand nor afford. Oh, and don't forget that your terrified another hurricane is going to come and wipe your house away.
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
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by eight6 » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:35 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
Nimrod? Bonehead? Brainiac? Darwinophobe? Cleopatra, Queen of Denile? Well OK, I'll give you that one, he's been marked by the horus.
Motors, I'm typing my secretive e-mail of support immediately after posting this.
[i]"The only thing I hate (besides brussels sprouts) is haters".[/i] I guess we're going to get along famously.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
You forgot "Darwinophobe"
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]
Your thoroughness is impressive.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
Nimrod? Bonehead? Brainiac? Darwinophobe? Cleopatra, Queen of Denile? Well OK, I'll give you that one, he's been marked by the horus.
Motors, I'm typing my secretive e-mail of support immediately after posting this.
[i]"The only thing I hate (besides brussels sprouts) is haters".[/i] I guess we're going to get along famously.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
You forgot "Darwinophobe"
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]
Your thoroughness is impressive.
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by Frau_Blucher » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:55 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
Nimrod? Bonehead? Brainiac? Darwinophobe? Cleopatra, Queen of Denile? Well OK, I'll give you that one, he's been marked by the horus.
Motors, I'm typing my secretive e-mail of support immediately after posting this.
[i]"The only thing I hate (besides brussels sprouts) is haters".[/i] I guess we're going to get along famously.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
You forgot "Darwinophobe"
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]
Your thoroughness is impressive.
[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! What a boob.
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
Nimrod? Bonehead? Brainiac? Darwinophobe? Cleopatra, Queen of Denile? Well OK, I'll give you that one, he's been marked by the horus.
Motors, I'm typing my secretive e-mail of support immediately after posting this.
[i]"The only thing I hate (besides brussels sprouts) is haters".[/i] I guess we're going to get along famously.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
You forgot "Darwinophobe"
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]
Your thoroughness is impressive.
[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! What a boob.
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by eight6 » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:20 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
On top of that, they are saddled with having been raised speaking a different dialect of English (African American vernacular, which most people think is just poor English. You may be surprised to know that it is an offical dialect with strict rules of grammar, a type of Creole, if you will. There's also the Gullah-Geechee language which is spoken by a lot of African Americans here on the coasts. These people live isolated on their own islands with no white interference, so how do THEIR kids get access to equal education?). When these kids are introduced to school, all the text used is written in proper English which these kids really don't understand very well. The No Child Left Behind Act does not look out for these children or try to help them with this. I have spoken to Linguistics specialists who say they keep petitioning the government to create a program that will bridge this language barrier and help these kids master proper English. They know it is a crucial step in helping these kids to succeed in life. So far, all the govt keeps doing is printing up more texts in proper English. Very little has been done to educate teachers on how to "reach" these kids. It's not that most teachers don't want to help, it's that the govt. doesn't provide funding or programs to help them.
This language barrier stems from the pidgin English Africans learned when they were enslaved. Eventually, this pidgin evolved into a Creole. After slavery, they were segregated from "white" society, which only helped to perpetuate the Creole. The cycle of poverty, supported with this language issue, is at the core of what is keeping a lot of African American children from reaching their true potential.
[/quote]
I must be missing something: how is this unique to African Americans? I live in a very diverse multicultural community, and the only time I ever hear this lament is when it is attached to blacks.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
On top of that, they are saddled with having been raised speaking a different dialect of English (African American vernacular, which most people think is just poor English. You may be surprised to know that it is an offical dialect with strict rules of grammar, a type of Creole, if you will. There's also the Gullah-Geechee language which is spoken by a lot of African Americans here on the coasts. These people live isolated on their own islands with no white interference, so how do THEIR kids get access to equal education?). When these kids are introduced to school, all the text used is written in proper English which these kids really don't understand very well. The No Child Left Behind Act does not look out for these children or try to help them with this. I have spoken to Linguistics specialists who say they keep petitioning the government to create a program that will bridge this language barrier and help these kids master proper English. They know it is a crucial step in helping these kids to succeed in life. So far, all the govt keeps doing is printing up more texts in proper English. Very little has been done to educate teachers on how to "reach" these kids. It's not that most teachers don't want to help, it's that the govt. doesn't provide funding or programs to help them.
This language barrier stems from the pidgin English Africans learned when they were enslaved. Eventually, this pidgin evolved into a Creole. After slavery, they were segregated from "white" society, which only helped to perpetuate the Creole. The cycle of poverty, supported with this language issue, is at the core of what is keeping a lot of African American children from reaching their true potential.
[/quote]
I must be missing something: how is this unique to African Americans? I live in a very diverse multicultural community, and the only time I ever hear this lament is when it is attached to blacks.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
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by MARV » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:26 am
Right, that's what [i]I'm[/i] saying too. Again, the language / dialect / whatever barrier only gets so much mileage if you ask me.
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by beatschool » Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:34 am
I'm glad Shovelbum has provided many of you with a distraction to argue over, but it seems like it is time that Motors answers my questions. He made a very definitive claim that Whites suffer the majority of racism in the US. How? Where? When? If you really believe the statement you made to be true, why do you refuse to back it up with even anecdotal evidence? My wife and child are trembling at the thought that they are "victims" of racism. Do it for the children. Help the next generation understand what you so clearly grasp.
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by i_like_lectric_motors » Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:50 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>I'm glad Shovelbum has provided many of you with a distraction to argue over, but it seems like it is time that Motors answers my questions. He made a very definitive claim that Whites suffer the majority of racism in the US. How? Where? When? If you really believe the statement you made to be true, why do you refuse to back it up with even anecdotal evidence? My wife and child are trembling at the thought that they are "victims" of racism. Do it for the children. Help the next generation understand what you so clearly grasp.
[/quote]
I already stated that I have neither the time nor the desire to enlighten the unenlightenable. You're just not worth the trouble. [8D]
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<br>I'm glad Shovelbum has provided many of you with a distraction to argue over, but it seems like it is time that Motors answers my questions. He made a very definitive claim that Whites suffer the majority of racism in the US. How? Where? When? If you really believe the statement you made to be true, why do you refuse to back it up with even anecdotal evidence? My wife and child are trembling at the thought that they are "victims" of racism. Do it for the children. Help the next generation understand what you so clearly grasp.
[/quote]
I already stated that I have neither the time nor the desire to enlighten the unenlightenable. You're just not worth the trouble. [8D]
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/motors/offend.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
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by beatschool » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:05 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>I'm glad Shovelbum has provided many of you with a distraction to argue over, but it seems like it is time that Motors answers my questions. He made a very definitive claim that Whites suffer the majority of racism in the US. How? Where? When? If you really believe the statement you made to be true, why do you refuse to back it up with even anecdotal evidence? My wife and child are trembling at the thought that they are "victims" of racism. Do it for the children. Help the next generation understand what you so clearly grasp.
[/quote]
I already stated that I have neither the time nor the desire to enlighten the unenlightenable. You're just not worth the trouble. [8D]
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/motors/offend.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
That's a cowardly cop-out and you know it.
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>I'm glad Shovelbum has provided many of you with a distraction to argue over, but it seems like it is time that Motors answers my questions. He made a very definitive claim that Whites suffer the majority of racism in the US. How? Where? When? If you really believe the statement you made to be true, why do you refuse to back it up with even anecdotal evidence? My wife and child are trembling at the thought that they are "victims" of racism. Do it for the children. Help the next generation understand what you so clearly grasp.
[/quote]
I already stated that I have neither the time nor the desire to enlighten the unenlightenable. You're just not worth the trouble. [8D]
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/motors/offend.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
[/quote]
That's a cowardly cop-out and you know it.
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by shovelbum » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:13 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>I have to ask: What islands are we talking about here? I've never heard of them.
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[/quote]
Marv, the SE coast is dotted with hundreds of small islands- the barrier islands of which the outer banks are a part. A lot of people don't realize this until they come out here because there are so many of them, and a lot of really small ones, that they are not all well designated on maps (unless you get a local map). The big islands here are James, Daniel, Seabrook, Isle of Palms, Kiawah, and Edisto Islands. There are plenty of smaller ones too. A lot of freed slaves moved to these islands to avoid white supremacy (and/or just whites period!) and to be "left alone". Their descendents still reside there today. The are part of a culture known as "Gullah". One of these islands was represented in the movie "The Patriot" (with Mel Gibson), when he took his family to a black island community in South Carolina to hide them from the British. The islands and this culture are also represented in the book (by Pat Conroy) and subsequent movie called "The Water is Wide". It was based on his true experience as a teacher there. Sadly, conditions there are pretty much the same today as they were then.
Thanks for asking![;)]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
<br>I have to ask: What islands are we talking about here? I've never heard of them.
<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>
[/quote]
Marv, the SE coast is dotted with hundreds of small islands- the barrier islands of which the outer banks are a part. A lot of people don't realize this until they come out here because there are so many of them, and a lot of really small ones, that they are not all well designated on maps (unless you get a local map). The big islands here are James, Daniel, Seabrook, Isle of Palms, Kiawah, and Edisto Islands. There are plenty of smaller ones too. A lot of freed slaves moved to these islands to avoid white supremacy (and/or just whites period!) and to be "left alone". Their descendents still reside there today. The are part of a culture known as "Gullah". One of these islands was represented in the movie "The Patriot" (with Mel Gibson), when he took his family to a black island community in South Carolina to hide them from the British. The islands and this culture are also represented in the book (by Pat Conroy) and subsequent movie called "The Water is Wide". It was based on his true experience as a teacher there. Sadly, conditions there are pretty much the same today as they were then.
Thanks for asking![;)]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
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by i_like_lectric_motors » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:19 am
Ok Beatschool, you got me. Everybody loves white people and there exists absolutely no racism, exploitation of "white guilt", double standards, high black on white crime rate ... none of it's real at all. We are just one great big multicultural rainbow of happiness and unity in the good old U.S.A. I'm sorry if I alarmed you - sleep well knowing that you're right and I'm wrong.
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by shovelbum » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:45 am
The sarcasm is so cute!
Lectric, no one said it doesn't exist. I can't speak for all of us (and I know YOU wouldn't want me to![;)]), but I bet most of us have gotten the poopy end of the prejudice stick at some point of our lives.
I guess the real point is that it shouldn't happen at all, to anyone, ever. The Shangrila you just described would be a wonderful reality, so maybe we should just stop bickering and instead put our energy toward acheiving it. ("If you build it, they will come.")
Probably a pipe dream, but better than none at all. [:)]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
Lectric, no one said it doesn't exist. I can't speak for all of us (and I know YOU wouldn't want me to![;)]), but I bet most of us have gotten the poopy end of the prejudice stick at some point of our lives.
I guess the real point is that it shouldn't happen at all, to anyone, ever. The Shangrila you just described would be a wonderful reality, so maybe we should just stop bickering and instead put our energy toward acheiving it. ("If you build it, they will come.")
Probably a pipe dream, but better than none at all. [:)]
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
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