Best Joy Division and New Order songs

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
Please, go on. Elaborate if you will. I don't "get" these "parameters".

[/quote]

I guess I will open a different topic later about that matter not to hijack this one.[:D]
[/quote]

Bless you.

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
Please, go on. Elaborate if you will. I don't "get" these "parameters".

[/quote]

I guess I will open a different topic later about that matter not to hijack this one.[:D]
[/quote]

Don't bother.
http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11302

<a href="http://www.worldwildlife.org/cetaceans/index.cfm">I dig whales.</a>

[fanciz]

[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
Please, go on. Elaborate if you will. I don't "get" these "parameters".

[/quote]

I guess I will open a different topic later about that matter not to hijack this one.[:D]
[/quote]

Gee! I barely mentioned a topic that I was planning to discuss and it was snatched! I wonder If I should report this to the Police![:D]

BTW, the topic that I wanted to discuss was the following:
Does Objectivity Exist In Music?
From a general, philosophical and abstract point of view, the kind of topics French people love to discuss at the terrace of Café de Flore...... However, since some dudes are taking it personally and have shown signs of antagonism, there is no more point of debating the issue.[:D]

[LovePlusOne]

I wouldn't equate having a strong opinion with "taking things personally," and you certainly didn't help matters by implying someone was mistaken because they recognized art and music appreciation is essentially a subjective exercise.

Look, as I'm sure has been the case for others I myself have gotten into a few bands long after the lights went dim and their lifecycle of hits came to a close, where it was their so-called "obscure" deep cuts that turned me onto them, not necessarily their most popular stuff.

Oh yeah, and "Low Life" IS New Order's best album top to bottom [:D]

[fanciz]

[quote][i]Originally posted by LovePlusOne[/i]
<br>I wouldn't equate having a strong opinion with "taking things personally," and you certainly didn't help matters by implying someone was mistaken because they recognized art and music appreciation is essentially a subjective exercise.

Look, as I'm sure has been the case for others I myself have gotten into a few bands long after the lights went dim and their lifecycle of hits came to a close, where it was their so-called "obscure" deep cuts that turned me onto them, not necessarily their most popular stuff.

Oh yeah, and "Low Life" IS New Order's best album top to bottom [:D]


[/quote]

I believe that we can judge things like art and music on two different levels. On a personal level our appreciation will be of course subjective but if we bring in parameters or criteria of quality, such as craftsmanship, creativity, originality, overall impact... whatever, our judgment might not be the same. I give you an example, suppose that you would go to the flea market and buy an obscure painting and boy! you like it very much for reasons only you know. Now, would you join a commission of experts on paintings and argue that your piece of crap is far superior than La Joconde on the ground that art appreciation is essentially a subjective exercise?
Of course not! That's the only thing I'm saying and take note that I don't consider myself an expert.

PS. I don't know why the album Low Life was somehow included in the discussion, it's a very good album, I do agree.[:D]

BTW: It seems that we share the same opinion:
Joy Division: Love Will Tear Us Apart, Transmission
New Order: Blue Monday, Bizarre Love Triangle

Would you say that it's entirely coincidental or did you use a little objectivity in your judgment?[:D][:D]

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]
<br>Gee! I barely mentioned a topic that I was planning to discuss and it was snatched! I wonder If I should report this to the Police![:D][/quote]

Well, I'm not sure what you would report. That a fellow poster began a thread with the same enthusiasm that you yourself purportedly had? But I see you decided against your own better judgement and, being unable to put your money where your mouth was, decided to instead "hijack this thread". Now I can almost see how [i]some dudes may take that personally[/i]. Quick, call the police [xx(] Anyway, now that I found where you've been hiding.....


[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]

I believe that we can judge things like art and music on two different levels. On a personal level our appreciation will be of course subjective but if we bring in parameters or criteria of quality, such as craftsmanship, creativity, originality, overall impact... whatever, our judgment might not be the same. I give you an example, suppose that you would go to the flea market and buy an obscure painting and boy! you like it very much for reasons only you know. Now, would you join a commission of experts on paintings and argue that your piece of crap is far superior than La Joconde on the ground that art appreciation is essentially a subjective exercise?
Of course not! That's the only thing I'm saying and take note that I don't consider myself an expert.[/quote]

Bottom line: Someone asks me or you or anybody else what the best J/D or N/O songs are and they'll get different answers. The very fact that this phenomenal random act occurs is proof positive that music appreciation is subjective. If it were indeed objective we would have all said the same thing. And yes, the same thing happens with your panel of painting experts - not everyone agrees with them. So who's an expert? Me, because I'm a musician, an artist, a design school graduate? Or you, because you liken your self to the French? You say you're not an expert yet you put yourself in a position of authority by telling us how to choose and that's BULLSHIT. You know what's objective? Grass is green. Snow falls from the sky. Dogs have four legs. Telling us that music appreciation which comes as an emotional reaction framed by one's own life experience and couched in a myriad of sociolological influences is bound by your "objectively correct" criteria makes you sound more like a musical highbrow. But it's not like this board has'nt had it's share of highbrows before, be they moral, political or what have you.....And it's all bullshit. Nothing more than opinion. Now thanks for sharing what shapes your opinion fanciz but most people don't want to be told that it's better.


[quote][i]Originally posted by LovePlusOne[/i]
<br>I wouldn't equate having a strong opinion with "taking things personally," and you certainly didn't help matters by implying someone was mistaken because they recognized art and music appreciation is essentially a subjective exercise.

Look, as I'm sure has been the case for others I myself have gotten into a few bands long after the lights went dim and their lifecycle of hits came to a close, where it was their so-called "obscure" deep cuts that turned me onto them, not necessarily their most popular stuff.

Oh yeah, and "Low Life" IS New Order's best album top to bottom [:D][/quote]

Oh, and LPO: well said and thanks [;)]

Now Professsor, if you would care to join the proper forum for this segue discussion, should you decide to come up with anymore response:
http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11302
This way, this particular thread can continue to be used for our J/D & N/O best song opinions.

<a href="http://www.worldwildlife.org/cetaceans/index.cfm">I dig whales.</a>

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by fanciz[/i]
<br>BTW, the topic that I wanted to discuss was the following:
Does Objectivity Exist In Music?
From a general, philosophical and abstract point of view, the kind of topics French people love to discuss at the terrace of Café de Flore...... However, since some dudes are taking it personally and have shown signs of antagonism, there is no more point of debating the issue.[:D]
[/quote]
It's too bad the way this turned out Fanciz. It would have been a great topic and I'm sure I would have learned some valuable points from everyone. I don't think people took it personally - you give yourself too much credit. I think the reaction was more incredulity and laughter at your now-typical pompous attitude. We probably jumped on you a bit too eagerly, but c'est la vie.

And to the point, I disagree with all y'all that Low Life is their best album...see?!!! [;)]

If I were to put on some faux arrogance..."Every New Order fan must appreciate, without equivocation, that Power Curruption and Lies is their best and most signature album - THE album that changed the musical landscape of the remainder of the 80s and even the club culture of the 90s. If you don't appreciate this, you not only are not a "true" fan but haven't grasped the objectivity needed to faithfully appreciate the essence of New Order." [}:)][:D]

But seriously - call me crazy - I think Get Ready and Siren's Call are the most listenable albums they've ever made. If someone said that I have to sit and listen to a New Order album, start-to-finish, I wouldn't pick any of their early works - they're indispensible but there's some weak fluff in there. I'd rather gather up all their early non-album singles and hear those back-to-back. Plus I can't remember the last time I listened to Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle all the way through - they'll always be there as classics but they don't appeal to me as much anymore on a personal enjoyment level. This might be sacriledge for an ardent JD/NO fan, but it's my honest opinion.

[obs]

LOL, New Order threads should be banned. At least this time, there wasn't any name calling and swearing [:D].

[pretzelbag]

Wow, look what I created! I had no idea that my simple intentions would have taken us here. Thank goodness for free speech and expression of ideas, even if I don't agree with everyone...

I suggested "Sunrise" as a good NO song since I figured that after 3+ weeks, the original poster had had the chance to listen to the other posted songs, all of which are good. "Sunrise" has a less techno/dance feeling than many NO songs, and in case the original requester did not find the previously recommended songs to his/her liking, then maybe he/she would like "Sunrise".

Fanciz, thanks for spurring this along.

But back to the topic...here's a new way of looking at it: if a person came to me and said, "Hey, someone told me I should listen to New Order, what do you recommend?", I would recommend that they listen to Low-life, from "This Time of Night" through "Sooner than You Think". In that four-song stretch, they cover an awful lot of ground.

Of course, this leaves off some GREAT songs, but on the chance that the listener has already heard (even in passing) "The Perfect Kiss" and "Subculture", then they'd be hearing a pretty good range of styles. And it kills me to pass over "Love Vigilantes"!

Don't get me wrong -- I have every US New Order CD, but Low-life seems to have a range that doesn't come along all that often. Of course, I am no music major so what styles they are is a mystery to me! Umm....rock, techno, instrumental, harmonica?

So maybe a new thread is needed: pick a well-regarded band that had 4+ albums generally available in the 80s. Using studio|released|common albums only, choose a contiguous 4-song stretch from only one album that best represents the band's range of accomplishments (or failures!).

-pretzelbag.