when Toyah attacks...MADONNA!

[toyah]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... ilcox.html

[Doctor Doctor]

[quote]Originally posted by toyah
[br]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/2797986/Madonna-ashamed-to-sing-Eighties-hits-claims-Toyah-Wilcox.html
[/quote]

Madonna has been trying to remain hip and current to frankly, embarrassing lengths recently. It just doesn't work when you're 50. Although whether this is the reason behind her set list is anyone's guess.



[b]"Can't you see I'm burnin?"[/b]

[Frank_Chickens]

Sounds like sour grapes at someone who's had hits beyond 1987.


--

"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[MetaMatrix]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
<br>Sounds like sour grapes at someone who's had hits beyond 1987.[/quote]

to me ( attention ! ( especially dj craig [;)] ) this is my personal opinion & NOT a general consensus ! ) it sounds much more like a heartfelt comment of a person with soul , who DIDN'T sold herself to the masses like MADdonna did already back in the 80s ! [:p]

while some artists aim for the hearts & minds of their audience , others only aim for the money of their fans ! *sigh*

[toyah]

exactly;
Toyah fled the commercial scene after her brief fling with CBS/Portrait(the "Minx" album)
;after her subsequent marriage to Robert Fripp(still going 25 years later) she recorded
critically acclaimed but not commercial at all albums like "Prostitute" and "Ophelia's
Shadow" as well as the "Sunday All Over The World" group effort with her husband;
her new album, "In The Court Of The Crimson Queen" looks like a return to form from
her Safari Records glory days in the UK(although the label seemed determined to
NOT get her an American deal,much to her dismay, one of the reasons she left Safari)

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by MetaMatrix[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
<br>Sounds like sour grapes at someone who's had hits beyond 1987.[/quote]

to me ( attention ! ( especially dj craig [;)] ) this is my personal opinion & NOT a general consensus ! ) it sounds much more like a heartfelt comment of a person with soul , who DIDN'T sold herself to the masses like MADdonna did already back in the 80s ! [:p]

while some artists aim for the hearts & minds of their audience , others only aim for the money of their fans ! *sigh*
[/quote]

Not sell herself to the masses?!?? At the time you could buy Toyah albums, t-shirts, badges, videos, keyrings etc.

Also, if she didn't sell herself to the masses, how did she have hits? [;)]

Edit: Not forgetting she was on K-tel which is hardly a small unknown label.


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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by toyah[/i]
<br>exactly;
Toyah fled the commercial scene after her brief fling with CBS/Portrait(the "Minx" album) after her subsequent marriage to Robert Fripp(still going 25 years later) she recorded critically acclaimed but not commercial at all albums like "Prostitute" and "Ophelia's
Shadow" as well as the "Sunday All Over The World" group effort with her husband; her new album, "In The Court Of The Crimson Queen" looks like a return to form from her Safari Records glory days in the UK(although the label seemed determined to NOT get her an American deal,much to her dismay, one of the reasons she left Safari)
[/quote]

I can see why fled might be the appropiate word after its short stay in the charts and the subsequent dumping by her record label. Many artists record product that can be said to be 'critically acclaimed'; the term is frequently used to a point where its meaning loses its significance.

Nice non-sequitor there with Robert Fripp. It could be said that the main reason why the marriage has lasted so long is that they see so little of each other or they would have probably divorced years ago.

Why do you say In The Court of the Crimson Queen looks like a return? Haven't you heard it yet?


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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[toyah]

if you don't like her, don't listen;
her success on the "Here And Now' tours, as an actress,tv personality,
and theatre star(as well as her well regarded discography) indicates that
a good number of people feel differently than you do,and as far as her home
country is concerned, she's certainly more high profile than Hazel O Connor,Lene Lovich,
Nina Hagen, or any of your other 'press darlings';
her ability to polarize and raise the hackles of burnt out bores
is one of the things that endears her to her fans

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by toyah[/i]
<br>if you don't like her, don't listen;
her success on the "Here And Now' tours, as an actress,tv personality,
and theatre star(as well as her well regarded discography) indicates that a good number of people feel differently than you do,and as far as her home country is concerned, she's certainly more high profile than Hazel O Connor,Lene Lovich, Nina Hagen, or any of your other 'press darlings'; her ability to polarize and raise the hackles of burnt out bores is one of the things that endears her to her fans
[/quote]

It was never said that I was listening to her in the first place and where does it say that Toyah wasn't liked by myself?

Your comments about her success in theatre, stage and TV would seem to contradict what MetaMatrix has said about someone who didn't sell herself to the masses? And your previous post about fleeing the commercial scene unless the above work listed by you was being done for charity.

Nina Hagan had little to no prescence in this country but quite a lot in her home country of Germany unsurprisingly. Lene Lovich career was greatly hampered by disputes with Stiff over promotion and Hazel's music career, such as it was, was only a sideline to her theatre work.

Where was it mentioned that I liked Hazel O' Connor, Nina Hagan or Lene Lovich? On this site there was a scathing review of a Hazel O' Connor gig by me; the only Hagan song that appeals to me is New York and there has never been any great joy by yours truly for the canon of Lene Lovich. Facts, rather than bitter-sound diatribes would work better for you next time.

Why not mention, say, Kate Bush or Sheen Easton or would this not fit your arguement so well?

Whose hackles did Toyah raise? Not those of Madonna who is known for changing the style of her music in the demands of current trends and is currently on a world tour.




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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[toyah]

Toyah raised the hackles of the british music papers, who adored her
when she was the underground darling, then despised her from the moment that the indie
release "Anthem" dominated the UK mainstream album chart for a year, the same
year that she enjoyed 2 top ten singles, and 2 more that made the top twenty'
;
as "The Changling" album(another mainstream Top Ten album a
year after "Anthem")served
as a(unacknowledged) sign post for the newborn 'goth' movement,
the UK press attacked her image, her pop star status, even her 'lisp'(not
too tacky)
her acting seemed to detract from her music for some, who felt you had to be
one or the other; in the 80s she starred alongside Katherine Hepburn(The Corn Is Green) and
Sir Laurence Olivier(The Ebony Tower), as well as her roles in Jubilee, Quadrophenia,
etc;
her acting is highly regarded, unlike Madonna's acting 'career';
you sounded like a Toyah basher to me, and actually, you still do;
either way, all the best to you.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Va26vSh ... re=related

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by toyah[/i]
<br>Toyah raised the hackles of the british music papers, who adored her when she was the underground darling, then despised her from the moment that the indie release "Anthem" dominated the UK mainstream album chart for a year, the same year that she enjoyed 2 top ten singles, and 2 more that made the top twenty'; as "The Changling" album(another mainstream Top Ten album a year after "Anthem")served
as a(unacknowledged) sign post for the newborn 'goth' movement,
the UK press attacked her image, her pop star status, even her 'lisp'(not too tacky)
her acting seemed to detract from her music for some, who felt you had to be one or the other; in the 80s she starred alongside Katherine Hepburn(The Corn Is Green) and Sir Laurence Olivier(The Ebony Tower), as well as her roles in Jubilee, Quadrophenia,
etc;
her acting is highly regarded, unlike Madonna's acting 'career';
you sounded like a Toyah basher to me, and actually, you still do;
either way, all the best to you.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Va26vSh ... re=related
[/quote]

You mean the press tactic of 'build them up and knock them down'? They've been doing that for decades to film stars, TV personalities and sportspeople (Tim Henman and the England football team springs to mind here).

In what post in this thread was Madonna's acting even mentioned by me? It's well-known that she is a poor actress; when your own husband cuts you out of one of his films you ought to take that as a hint that you can't act for toffee.

When did I bash Toyah in this thread? All that I did on this thread was to answer your points about her and unlike yourself did not jump to any ill-formed conclusions about artists that other people may or may not like

All the best.

PS Nice link to the Three of a Kind show parody of Toyah. Recommend getting the DVDs of the shows as they're still good to watch.




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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[MetaMatrix]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
Not sell herself to the masses?!?? At the time you could buy Toyah albums, t-shirts, badges, videos, keyrings etc.[/quote]

well ... while madonna indeed sold HER SELF ( to put it that way ) to the masses , toyah & others only sold her commercially available products ( like albums , t-shirts etc. ) to "the masses" , which is actually a HUGE difference then ! [;)]

where madonna's name stands for A POP PRODUCT in itself , toyah's name stands for artistical integrity & challenge !
that's the main difference between these two !

[toyah]

I see both sides of the coin, and as a Toyah fan, I'd have luved to see
her get a shot at America(with her records released here), which she never did regardless of where the
blame lies(most blame her then UK label, Safari Records, who also
failed to get Wayne/Jayne County a 'day in court' with the US record
buying public

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by MetaMatrix[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
Not sell herself to the masses?!?? At the time you could buy Toyah albums, t-shirts, badges, videos, keyrings etc.[/quote]

well ... while madonna indeed sold HER SELF ( to put it that way ) to the masses , toyah & others only sold her commercially available products ( like albums , t-shirts etc. ) to "the masses" , which is actually a HUGE difference then ! [;)]

where madonna's name stands for A POP PRODUCT in itself , toyah's name stands for artistical integrity & challenge !
that's the main difference between these two !
[/quote]

Then again, I wasn´t the one claiming to the contrary was I?

Where in my posts on thos said did I say that Madonna wasn´t a commercial sell-out? (you do realise she only sold an image of herself to garner interest in her releases) In the end of the day it´s all about shifting product units which no matter how you dress it up as ´artistic integrity and challenge' (a good case could be made for the latter wih Madonna as it takes ability to constantly change your music and keep it popular). Artistic integrity and challenge(why cover Écho Beach´ and release it as a single?) are two interesting flags to wave about, but they soon go when there´s bills to be paid, which could be said about her current her stage tour.


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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by toyah[/i]
<br>I see both sides of the coin, and as a Toyah fan, I'd have luved to see
her get a shot at America(with her records released here), which she never did regardless of where the
blame lies(most blame her then UK label, Safari Records, who also
failed to get Wayne/Jayne County a 'day in court' with the US record
buying public
[/quote]

Unfortunately that´s the problem with a lot of indy labels - they lack distribution muscle outside of thie prospective area.

A way forward would have been CBS Records who at that time were handling distribution for Oi! bands like The Exploited and G.B:H. With their muscle Toyah certainly could have done something in America, but I think that apart from Toyah there weren´t too many other acts on that label that were doing well which could explain their reluctance about promoting her elsewhere.


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"As chairman of the Cradle of Filth fanclub I'm the most insensitive man in Britain, but even I can see there's tension there"