USA = 300 mill

[marie3]

[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marie3[/i]

Listen, I don't care if the people crossing the border are Mexican, Italian, Irish, or little men from Mars. As long as they come here legally.
[/quote]

I don't think the little men from Mars would be a problem. They should have no problem getting a 'green' card. Agreed on the rest.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/eight.gif"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/number6.gif">

Winter nutsacks available soon!!
[/quote]

Ha! [:o)] I didn't even think of that. [:D]

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by edisonoside[/i]
Here is Clinton interview on the topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPyQ4Ae6Ei0[/quote]

Yeah, I remember seeing that on TV. How sad to see a once president of the greatest country in the world lose his cool like that. When he was in office, I thought he was all about the cool. But I guess it's hard to answer such direct questions on live TV like that. I tell you, the day of 9/11 itself, I knew he'd have to answer some hard questions sooner or later. You'd think he'd have been better prepared and not have gotten so defensive. Who ever said politics were fair? [:(] And did he have to repeat himself so many times? [V] Anyway, here are a few wrongs from the left to hopefully balance out the wrongs from the right for you. But pledging allegiance to no particualr "side", I'm sure you know about these sorts of things. Maybe one or two of your posts could reflect that?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/20 ... ews-13.asp

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=21502

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>

[iposse]

Here's some perspective from someone who's day job is in the healthcare industry over here in SoCal.

Medi-Cal (the state Medicaid program for the poor here in California) covers 100% of doctor/hospital bills for low-income families at the taxpayers' expense. This includes both low-income legal and illegal immigrants. It's not just hospitals they're going to--they can see OBs for their pregnancies and pediatricians after they have kids.

You can say what you want about how we need to dump privatized corporate health care and install a public health care system (a la Canada), but we already have one--for the people who abuse it the most. Many illegal and legal immigrants do work, but for industries that don't offer them health care coverage. Thus, unlike the rest of us, illegals (and lower-income legals) don't have to pay a dime in premiums for health care. As a group, very few hispanic legal immigrants (unlike almost all other immigrant ethnic groups) can work their way up to a point where they'll make enough money that Medi-Cal will no longer cover them.

The 10 or 12 kids comment isn't a stretch either. Contraceptive use among hispanics is the lowest among [i]all[/i] racial groups in the U.S. and as a result, and a large chunk of the Medi-Cal population consists of all those teenage hispanic non-working single mothers.

I'm assuming that Medicaid programs in other states have the same problems (to a lesser degree). But yeah, the point is, the healthcare problem is bad, and it's even worse than you think.

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by iposse[/i]

You can say what you want about how we need to dump privatized corporate health care and install a public health care system (a la Canada), but we already have one--for the people who abuse it the most. Many illegal and legal immigrants do work, but for industries that don't offer them health care coverage. Thus, unlike the rest of us, illegals (and lower-income legals) don't have to pay a dime in premiums for health care. As a group, very few hispanic legal immigrants (unlike almost all other immigrant ethnic groups) can work their way up to a point where they'll make enough money that Medi-Cal will no longer cover them.


[/quote]

Many provinces in Canada are considering the exact opposite...that is allowing privatized health, not funded on a corporate level but rather by the end user. I'm for it...many are against it. Take a guess as to who is for and who is against this idea.

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Winter nutsacks available soon!!

[iposse]

[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by iposse[/i]

You can say what you want about how we need to dump privatized corporate health care and install a public health care system (a la Canada), but we already have one--for the people who abuse it the most. Many illegal and legal immigrants do work, but for industries that don't offer them health care coverage. Thus, unlike the rest of us, illegals (and lower-income legals) don't have to pay a dime in premiums for health care. As a group, very few hispanic legal immigrants (unlike almost all other immigrant ethnic groups) can work their way up to a point where they'll make enough money that Medi-Cal will no longer cover them.


[/quote]

Many provinces in Canada are considering the exact opposite...that is allowing privatized health, not funded on a corporate level but rather by the end user. I'm for it...many are against it. Take a guess as to who is for and who is against this idea.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/eight.gif"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/number6.gif">

Winter nutsacks available soon!!
[/quote]

Would these be like personal health savings accounts or are these more like employer/union-operated health plans?

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by iposse[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by iposse[/i]

You can say what you want about how we need to dump privatized corporate health care and install a public health care system (a la Canada), but we already have one--for the people who abuse it the most. Many illegal and legal immigrants do work, but for industries that don't offer them health care coverage. Thus, unlike the rest of us, illegals (and lower-income legals) don't have to pay a dime in premiums for health care. As a group, very few hispanic legal immigrants (unlike almost all other immigrant ethnic groups) can work their way up to a point where they'll make enough money that Medi-Cal will no longer cover them.


[/quote]

Many provinces in Canada are considering the exact opposite...that is allowing privatized health, not funded on a corporate level but rather by the end user. I'm for it...many are against it. Take a guess as to who is for and who is against this idea.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/eight.gif"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/number6.gif">

Winter nutsacks available soon!!
[/quote]

Would these be like personal health savings accounts or are these more like employer/union-operated health plans?
[/quote]

Neither...more like if you've got the cash to pay for it privately outside of the provincially run system you get it done more or less immediately...unavailable here for most things other than cosmetic procedures.

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Winter nutsacks available soon!!

[iposse]

What you're saying sounds like common sense to me. Of course, in today's society you'd have people howling over how that's unfair to those who can't afford to pay out of their pockets.

Then again, we have to look at this on the doctor-perspective too. I'm not too much of an expert on how things are up there, but I'm sure most doctors in Canada hate public health care due to low government reimbursements, hate having to be force-fed more patients than they can handle, etc. They'd be much happier, and do a much better job for [i]all[/i] their patients, if they get paid "what they deserve" for the level for the work they do and how much stress they're under (and I agree). It's the same reason doctors hate HMO's (for the reasons above, plus the fact that physicians are forced to engage in cost-cutting). Patients paying directly for their services is really the best way to go. Anyway, enough digressing...let's get back to our friends from down below.

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by iposse[/i]
<br>What you're saying sounds like common sense to me. Of course, in today's society you'd have people howling over how that's unfair to those who can't afford to pay out of their pockets.

Then again, we have to look at this on the doctor-perspective too. I'm not too much of an expert on how things are up there, but I'm sure most doctors in Canada hate public health care due to low government reimbursements, hate having to be force-fed more patients than they can handle, etc. They'd be much happier, and do a much better job for [i]all[/i] their patients, if they get paid "what they deserve" for the level for the work they do and how much stress they're under (and I agree). It's the same reason doctors hate HMO's (for the reasons above, plus the fact that physicians are forced to engage in cost-cutting). Patients paying directly for their services is really the best way to go. Anyway, enough digressing...let's get back to our friends from down below.
[/quote]

This statement is so bang on, I checked to see if you were standing behind me...Exactly right on all counts: hence the exodus of quality M.D.'s from Canada.

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I was smellin' alright, and lookin' alright.

[Bitter Almonds]

<p align="justify">Finding a good/honest doctor is like finding a good/honest mechanic. If you have state-funded medi-cal, they're more than happy to order the whole enchilada of tests and visits to bilk the system. If it's an HMO, then, yes, they have to engage in cost-cutting - even for stuff that is or might be necessary[xx(] Buncha crooks, really.

[NuWaveRx]

[quote][i]Originally posted by XXX[/i]
<br><p align="justify">Finding a good/honest doctor is like finding a good/honest mechanic. If you have state-funded medi-cal, they're more than happy to order the whole enchilada of tests and visits to bilk the system. If it's an HMO, then, yes, they have to engage in cost-cutting - even for stuff that is or might be necessary[xx(] Buncha crooks, really.
[/quote]

That's not been my experince with the internist group I work with. On the whole they are honest, extremely hard working people who genuinely care about patients. Unfortunately in today's litigous atmosphere physicians are often forced (sometimes by the extreme insistence of the patients themselves) to order tests that are probably not necessary. I don't know about California, but my docs don't make money based on the number of tests/labs they order. In fact in many of the capitated plans they lose money by doing so. Additionally pay-for-performance by third-party payors is becoming commonplace and will (for better or worse) further alter how physicians approach diagnostics and treatment.

Different views from different sides of the health-care system, I suppose...

[iposse]

[quote][i]Originally posted by XXX[/i]
<br><p align="justify">Finding a good/honest doctor is like finding a good/honest mechanic. If you have state-funded medi-cal, they're more than happy to order the whole enchilada of tests and visits to bilk the system. If it's an HMO, then, yes, they have to engage in cost-cutting - even for stuff that is or might be necessary[xx(] Buncha crooks, really.
[/quote]

Well, Medi-Cal has historically paid extremely low reimbursement rates to doctors. The only way to "bilk the system" is to bill for tests and visits that aren't actually performed. To prevent this, the state of California will occasionally send auditors down to doctor's offices/hospitals to thumb through all the patient medical records and make sure they're consistent with what was actually being billed to Medi-Cal. Doctors can get in a whole heap of trouble if the auditors find that things aren't right.

If the doctors belong to an HMO, the HMO pays the doctor a certain amount (a "capitation") for each patient that they see. It doesn't matter how long they see the patient, how many tests they run, etc. Thus, to echo NuWaveRx's comment, the more attention HMO doctors give their patients, the less money those doctors make. The overwhelming majority of doctors want to do a good job--but they're penalized for doing so.

Most doctors would like a system where patients simply pay for whatever services they have. The problem is, there are social "equality" issues (the very rich getting the very best services with the poor being shut out of their "right" to healthcare needs). Also, many doctors join HMO's because they wouldn't know how to get any patients otherwise (doctors aren't exactly business or marketing experts after all). The moral is that healthcare is thorny, and there's really no magic solution (although we do know that illegal immigrants are making it much much worse).