[b]eight6[/b]: "I judge people based on their merits. I don't take into account nor consider historic factors because that sways my judgment of the person I'm dealing with. I don't care if you're black, white, asian or from Mars...I have expectations of you as a person, just as you no doubt will have expectations of me. Meet my expectations and we'll get along fine; don't meet them and we'll have words."
Again, good for you. But we're not talking about your personal system-- how you [i]personally[/i] treat people. As an individual you are not obligated to correct the sins of the past (or present) or give anyone special treatment. You are required only to follow the law and to treat others as equals. We're talking about here is whether or not we support a specific set of public policies.
Your position is stated from the viewpoint of an individual, is that the past is over and thanks to your handy system, things are hunky-dory in eight6 world. This hews pretty closely to Thomas Sowell's position.
My position is that minorities historically have suffered from racism and discrimination, and this legacy is present in various forms today. Unlike many other groups, Blacks came to this country in bondage and oppression and were released but disenfranched and in apartheid throughout parts of the US as late as the 1970's. This was not confined to individual racism, but was encoded in public policy at all levels. This is what affirmative action and related programs seek to redress. It's an attempt to use public policy to reverse the disadvantages created by a long history of shameful public policy.
Some people, such as Dr. Sowell disagree that public policy should attempt to correct sins of the past, and that the remedy is worse than the sickness. Similar arguments have been made about feeding the hungry or providing shelter for the homeless. I concede to a certain extent that public policy is imperfect and can create unintended consequences (e.g., people taking advantage of policies who don't need it) or distortions (e.g., people changing their behavior and becoming dependent on the policies). Then again, if you don't like public policy, there's always the voting booth.
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Hey Cambridge Police
by SallyLightfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:02 am
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by eight6 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:50 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
Your position is stated from the viewpoint of an individual, is that the past is over and thanks to your handy system, things are hunky-dory in eight6 world. This hews pretty closely to Thomas Sowell's position.
[/quote]
Hunky-dory...again condescending; but that's you.
[quote]
My position is that minorities historically have suffered from racism and discrimination, and this legacy is present in various forms today. Unlike many other groups, Blacks came to this country in bondage and oppression and were released but disenfranched and in apartheid throughout parts of the US as late as the 1970's. This was not confined to individual racism, but was encoded in public policy at all levels. This is what affirmative action and related programs seek to redress. It's an attempt to use public policy to reverse the disadvantages created by a long history of shameful public policy.
[/quote]
I see...like fixing one mistake with another mistake.
[quote]
Some people, such as Dr. Sowell disagree that public policy should attempt to correct sins of the past, and that the remedy is worse than the sickness. Similar arguments have been made about feeding the hungry or providing shelter for the homeless. I concede to a certain extent that public policy is imperfect and can create unintended consequences (e.g., people taking advantage of policies who don't need it) or distortions (e.g., people changing their behavior and becoming dependent on the policies).
[/quote]
Unintended consequences indeed! Again, that's why it's time to end the practice of fixing one mistake with yet another mistake.
I'm liking this Dr. Sowell...I wonder if we're related?
[quote]
Then again, if you don't like public policy, there's always the voting booth.
[/quote]
I'll be watching for the changes. It's been six months, and if anything, Obama has fanned the flames of racial discord, not moved to extinguish them.
Your position is stated from the viewpoint of an individual, is that the past is over and thanks to your handy system, things are hunky-dory in eight6 world. This hews pretty closely to Thomas Sowell's position.
[/quote]
Hunky-dory...again condescending; but that's you.
[quote]
My position is that minorities historically have suffered from racism and discrimination, and this legacy is present in various forms today. Unlike many other groups, Blacks came to this country in bondage and oppression and were released but disenfranched and in apartheid throughout parts of the US as late as the 1970's. This was not confined to individual racism, but was encoded in public policy at all levels. This is what affirmative action and related programs seek to redress. It's an attempt to use public policy to reverse the disadvantages created by a long history of shameful public policy.
[/quote]
I see...like fixing one mistake with another mistake.
[quote]
Some people, such as Dr. Sowell disagree that public policy should attempt to correct sins of the past, and that the remedy is worse than the sickness. Similar arguments have been made about feeding the hungry or providing shelter for the homeless. I concede to a certain extent that public policy is imperfect and can create unintended consequences (e.g., people taking advantage of policies who don't need it) or distortions (e.g., people changing their behavior and becoming dependent on the policies).
[/quote]
Unintended consequences indeed! Again, that's why it's time to end the practice of fixing one mistake with yet another mistake.
I'm liking this Dr. Sowell...I wonder if we're related?
[quote]
Then again, if you don't like public policy, there's always the voting booth.
[/quote]
I'll be watching for the changes. It's been six months, and if anything, Obama has fanned the flames of racial discord, not moved to extinguish them.
-
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by ghosty » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:33 am
Actually this whole ordeal could've been avoided had Obama said "I didn't know the facts of the case and I was wrong". There was no need for this to become a national issue. This should've wound up in the "Strange But True" column of you local newspaper and nothing more.
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by ghosty » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:58 am
And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
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by SallyLightfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:16 am
[b]Ghosty[/b]: ...had Obama said "I didn't know the facts of the case and I was wrong".
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i] Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property. Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.
Interesting how it's common wisdom these days to be submissive to the police or you're going to suffer consequences. And we're okay with this (as long as it's some other bum who gets the baton). Conservatives and libertarians look past this, however, probably because there are political points to be scored when there's a democrat in the white house.
[b]eight6[/b]: "condescending; but that's you."
Meh. Reminds me of an old Harry Truman quote: [i]"I didn't really give them Hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was Hell!"[/i]
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i] Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property. Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.
Interesting how it's common wisdom these days to be submissive to the police or you're going to suffer consequences. And we're okay with this (as long as it's some other bum who gets the baton). Conservatives and libertarians look past this, however, probably because there are political points to be scored when there's a democrat in the white house.
[b]eight6[/b]: "condescending; but that's you."
Meh. Reminds me of an old Harry Truman quote: [i]"I didn't really give them Hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was Hell!"[/i]
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by Spit » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:28 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by ghosty[/i]
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Same shit as always. The media hype then the general public gets suck in.
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Same shit as always. The media hype then the general public gets suck in.
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by club80 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:30 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[b]eight6[/b]: "Yes, what has happened in the past was wrong, terrible, ghastly, well, you pick the word. What of it? How is impulsively crying racism at every turn improving your lot in life as a black person?"
Translation: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States" target="_new9">Black people</a>-- <a href="http://www.helium.com/items/813783-an-overview-of-the-jim-crow-laws" target="_new1">the</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States" target="_new5">past</a> has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male" target="_new4">no</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till" target="_new3">bearing</a> on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr." target="_new2">present</a>. STFU, get over it, work hard and stop making excuses.
[/quote]
Um...right. As much as this may pain you to read...I don't care. I judge people based on their merits. I don't take into account nor consider historic factors because that sways my judgment of the person I'm dealing with. I don't care if you're black, white, asian or from Mars...I have expectations of you as a person, just as you no doubt will have expectations of me. Meet my expectations and we'll get along fine; don't meet them and we'll have words.
I like my system: I don't have to build in allowances/variances/breaks for the evils done to a particular group in the past. I don't have to feel like I'm mandated to provide some with an easier road to travel than others would receive. Everyone receives equal treatment, and isn't that the goal here? In fact, the only people I've come across in my life who object to my way of doing things are the few who expect that 'easy road'. I would rather not deal with them...I'm sure others more than willing to do so, and I gladly leave that task to them.
If you feel that the myriad of articles & documentaries you site as support for your views gives you a wider scope and a more in depth perspective on things, good for you. On the other hand, if the purpose was to "educate" me...no thanks. I think I can get my head around a concept like all men are equal without your help.
[/quote]
You know, you really can't say it any better than this. I couldn't agree more.
We didn't sell a lot of records, but somehow we left an impression.
-Johnny Ramone-
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[b]eight6[/b]: "Yes, what has happened in the past was wrong, terrible, ghastly, well, you pick the word. What of it? How is impulsively crying racism at every turn improving your lot in life as a black person?"
Translation: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States" target="_new9">Black people</a>-- <a href="http://www.helium.com/items/813783-an-overview-of-the-jim-crow-laws" target="_new1">the</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States" target="_new5">past</a> has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male" target="_new4">no</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till" target="_new3">bearing</a> on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr." target="_new2">present</a>. STFU, get over it, work hard and stop making excuses.
[/quote]
Um...right. As much as this may pain you to read...I don't care. I judge people based on their merits. I don't take into account nor consider historic factors because that sways my judgment of the person I'm dealing with. I don't care if you're black, white, asian or from Mars...I have expectations of you as a person, just as you no doubt will have expectations of me. Meet my expectations and we'll get along fine; don't meet them and we'll have words.
I like my system: I don't have to build in allowances/variances/breaks for the evils done to a particular group in the past. I don't have to feel like I'm mandated to provide some with an easier road to travel than others would receive. Everyone receives equal treatment, and isn't that the goal here? In fact, the only people I've come across in my life who object to my way of doing things are the few who expect that 'easy road'. I would rather not deal with them...I'm sure others more than willing to do so, and I gladly leave that task to them.
If you feel that the myriad of articles & documentaries you site as support for your views gives you a wider scope and a more in depth perspective on things, good for you. On the other hand, if the purpose was to "educate" me...no thanks. I think I can get my head around a concept like all men are equal without your help.
[/quote]
You know, you really can't say it any better than this. I couldn't agree more.
We didn't sell a lot of records, but somehow we left an impression.
-Johnny Ramone-
- club80
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by djcraig » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:32 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by ghosty[/i]
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Yeah, the beer stunt fits in Obamas established codependent motif as trying to placate while appearing as a problem solver. At the same time, it gets him out of having to apologize or admit he fucked up.
I have an idea- why don't Eight 6, Motors, the rest of the lucid NWO contingent and Sally just have a beer together?
Problem solved.
Fuck, I should run for office!
<a href="http://www.djcraig.net/los_angeles_dj">DJ Craig</a>
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Yeah, the beer stunt fits in Obamas established codependent motif as trying to placate while appearing as a problem solver. At the same time, it gets him out of having to apologize or admit he fucked up.
I have an idea- why don't Eight 6, Motors, the rest of the lucid NWO contingent and Sally just have a beer together?
Problem solved.
Fuck, I should run for office!
<a href="http://www.djcraig.net/los_angeles_dj">DJ Craig</a>
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by SallyLightfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:00 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Spit[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by ghosty[/i]
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Same shit as always. The media hype then the general public gets suck in.
[/quote]I think this at least may be common ground for us. The media's continued fawning over Obama is nauseating... What a superficial celebrity-driven culture we have.
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by ghosty[/i]
<br>And right after I typed the above, the brain dead bloodsuckers on CNN are practically jizzing themselves about this orchestrated "friendly beer" PR stunt. This whole Gates issue strikes me as some idiotic reality show with our President as the host.
[/quote]
Same shit as always. The media hype then the general public gets suck in.
[/quote]I think this at least may be common ground for us. The media's continued fawning over Obama is nauseating... What a superficial celebrity-driven culture we have.
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by ghosty » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:20 am
Sallylightfoot said:
"Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i] Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property. Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights."
Sally, you jumped the gun and misinterpreted my comment. I was suggesting that Obama should've said "...I was wrong" as in "I was wrong to make a statement because I didn't know the facts of the case". I thought I made myself clear but evidently I didn't. Obama lit the fuse that made CNN, Fox and MSNBC wet their pants with excited dreams of ratings RATINGS RATINGS! They'll be milking this story to death. The "beer" PR stunt only keeps the news cycle churning. Magazine cover stories are coming. Book deals are being made. Nothing positive will come from this. No greater understanding between the races or anything like that. The only positive out of the President's statement and the "beer" PR stunt is that it ensures that Miko Brando won't be on Larry King Live again tonight talking about Michael Jackson.
Sallylightfoot said: "Interesting how it's common wisdom these days to be submissive to the police or you're going to suffer consequences. And we're okay with this (as long as it's some other bum who gets the baton). Conservatives and libertarians look past this, however, probably because there are political points to be scored when there's a democrat in the white house."
Sally, I'm assuming that this is rhetorical and not directed at me? Anyway, It's got nothing to do with anything I've posted.
"Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i] Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property. Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights."
Sally, you jumped the gun and misinterpreted my comment. I was suggesting that Obama should've said "...I was wrong" as in "I was wrong to make a statement because I didn't know the facts of the case". I thought I made myself clear but evidently I didn't. Obama lit the fuse that made CNN, Fox and MSNBC wet their pants with excited dreams of ratings RATINGS RATINGS! They'll be milking this story to death. The "beer" PR stunt only keeps the news cycle churning. Magazine cover stories are coming. Book deals are being made. Nothing positive will come from this. No greater understanding between the races or anything like that. The only positive out of the President's statement and the "beer" PR stunt is that it ensures that Miko Brando won't be on Larry King Live again tonight talking about Michael Jackson.
Sallylightfoot said: "Interesting how it's common wisdom these days to be submissive to the police or you're going to suffer consequences. And we're okay with this (as long as it's some other bum who gets the baton). Conservatives and libertarians look past this, however, probably because there are political points to be scored when there's a democrat in the white house."
Sally, I'm assuming that this is rhetorical and not directed at me? Anyway, It's got nothing to do with anything I've posted.
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by SallyLightfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:42 am
Ghosty-- Ah, ok, I think that statement was open to interpretation. The rest of my comments were just an observation and not directed at you.
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by MARV » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:26 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[b]Ghosty[/b]: ...had Obama said "I didn't know the facts of the case and I was wrong".
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i][/quote]
That's your opinion. Being partially right isn't exactly being objective or even-handed and that's what Obama should have been. At least he (sort of) apologized for that impulsive and emotionally driven remark. It was totally off the cuff and I hope he doesn't react that way to bigger issues that really have a bearing on this country.
[quote]Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property.[/quote]
As stupidly as Gates did for provoking a cop.
[quote]Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.[/quote]
Thing is, cops can also be jerks...and totally get away with it.
<a href="http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/?action=view¤t=tick.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/tick.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<br>[b]Ghosty[/b]: ...had Obama said "I didn't know the facts of the case and I was wrong".
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i][/quote]
That's your opinion. Being partially right isn't exactly being objective or even-handed and that's what Obama should have been. At least he (sort of) apologized for that impulsive and emotionally driven remark. It was totally off the cuff and I hope he doesn't react that way to bigger issues that really have a bearing on this country.
[quote]Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property.[/quote]
As stupidly as Gates did for provoking a cop.
[quote]Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.[/quote]
Thing is, cops can also be jerks...and totally get away with it.
<a href="http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/?action=view¤t=tick.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/tick.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
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by MARV » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:35 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by club80[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[b]eight6[/b]: "Yes, what has happened in the past was wrong, terrible, ghastly, well, you pick the word. What of it? How is impulsively crying racism at every turn improving your lot in life as a black person?"
Translation: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States" target="_new9">Black people</a>-- <a href="http://www.helium.com/items/813783-an-overview-of-the-jim-crow-laws" target="_new1">the</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States" target="_new5">past</a> has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male" target="_new4">no</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till" target="_new3">bearing</a> on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr." target="_new2">present</a>. STFU, get over it, work hard and stop making excuses.
[/quote]
Um...right. As much as this may pain you to read...I don't care. I judge people based on their merits. I don't take into account nor consider historic factors because that sways my judgment of the person I'm dealing with. I don't care if you're black, white, asian or from Mars...I have expectations of you as a person, just as you no doubt will have expectations of me. Meet my expectations and we'll get along fine; don't meet them and we'll have words.
I like my system: I don't have to build in allowances/variances/breaks for the evils done to a particular group in the past. I don't have to feel like I'm mandated to provide some with an easier road to travel than others would receive. Everyone receives equal treatment, and isn't that the goal here? In fact, the only people I've come across in my life who object to my way of doing things are the few who expect that 'easy road'. I would rather not deal with them...I'm sure others more than willing to do so, and I gladly leave that task to them.
If you feel that the myriad of articles & documentaries you site as support for your views gives you a wider scope and a more in depth perspective on things, good for you. On the other hand, if the purpose was to "educate" me...no thanks. I think I can get my head around a concept like all men are equal without your help.
[/quote]
You know, you really can't say it any better than this. I couldn't agree more.
We didn't sell a lot of records, but somehow we left an impression.
-Johnny Ramone-
[/quote]
Yeah. (Trading Places fans will know who I'm channeling.) [:D]
<a href="http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/?action=view¤t=tick.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/marvymarv/tick.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[b]eight6[/b]: "Yes, what has happened in the past was wrong, terrible, ghastly, well, you pick the word. What of it? How is impulsively crying racism at every turn improving your lot in life as a black person?"
Translation: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States" target="_new9">Black people</a>-- <a href="http://www.helium.com/items/813783-an-overview-of-the-jim-crow-laws" target="_new1">the</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States" target="_new5">past</a> has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male" target="_new4">no</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till" target="_new3">bearing</a> on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr." target="_new2">present</a>. STFU, get over it, work hard and stop making excuses.
[/quote]
Um...right. As much as this may pain you to read...I don't care. I judge people based on their merits. I don't take into account nor consider historic factors because that sways my judgment of the person I'm dealing with. I don't care if you're black, white, asian or from Mars...I have expectations of you as a person, just as you no doubt will have expectations of me. Meet my expectations and we'll get along fine; don't meet them and we'll have words.
I like my system: I don't have to build in allowances/variances/breaks for the evils done to a particular group in the past. I don't have to feel like I'm mandated to provide some with an easier road to travel than others would receive. Everyone receives equal treatment, and isn't that the goal here? In fact, the only people I've come across in my life who object to my way of doing things are the few who expect that 'easy road'. I would rather not deal with them...I'm sure others more than willing to do so, and I gladly leave that task to them.
If you feel that the myriad of articles & documentaries you site as support for your views gives you a wider scope and a more in depth perspective on things, good for you. On the other hand, if the purpose was to "educate" me...no thanks. I think I can get my head around a concept like all men are equal without your help.
[/quote]
You know, you really can't say it any better than this. I couldn't agree more.
We didn't sell a lot of records, but somehow we left an impression.
-Johnny Ramone-
[/quote]
Yeah. (Trading Places fans will know who I'm channeling.) [:D]
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by SallyLightfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:46 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by mar#8730;[/i]<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]<br>[b]Ghosty[/b]: ...had Obama said "I didn't know the facts of the case and I was wrong".
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i][/quote]That's your opinion. Being partially right isn't exactly being objective or even-handed and that's what Obama should have been. At least he (sort of) apologized for that impulsive and emotionally driven remark. It was totally off the cuff and I hope he doesn't react that way to bigger issues that really have a bearing on this country.[/quote]We're probably talking about different things here. I'm talking about the law, not the politics or decorum (and I've already said Obama should not have commented on this at all).
The charges against Gates were dropped because they are indefensible from a legal standpoint. They amount to false charges. So when I say Obama was not wrong in saying the Cambridge Police acted stupidly, I mean that Obama is correct based on the legal aspects of the case. Obama certainly could have been more even-handed in this and said that Gates acted stupidly as well, but that does not invalidate his statement about Crowley.
If you can point to a legal analysis online which says the Cambridge Police had a valid case against Gates, I'd be interested to read it.
[quote][i]Originally posted by mar#8730;[/i]<br>[quote]Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property.[/quote]As stupidly as Gates did for provoking a cop.[/quote]I disagree. Sgt. Crowley has a job to perform-- a professional obligation and oath to uphold as a public servant. Arresting someone on a false charge is at odds with his job and can be a basis for getting disciplined. Cops are human, but that is why they receive training and have strict procedures. Crowley should get some remedial training in conflict resolution. Furthermore, Crowley failed to follow the law and police procedure and provide his badge number, and his police report almost certainly contains deliberate false statements.
Gates was stupid for being rude to an officer, of taking a foolish risk, since officers are armed and may use force to subdue suspects (note: Gates was not a suspect). He breached no professional or public obligations by his actions. Gates, as a 59 year old man, is lucky that Crowley did not wrongly use a taser to impose compliance. [quote][i]Originally posted by mar#8730;[/i]<br>[quote]Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.[/quote]Thing is, cops can also be jerks...and totally get away with it.
[/quote]I agree here. This is where Gates blew it, and it has nothing (AFAICT) to do with race. Sure, Gates just got home from a 19 hour flight from China and was probably jetlagged out of his mind, but had he given his ID and asked Crowley, "Am I free to go about my business now?" that would have forced Crowley's hand and ended it. For Crowley to answer in the negative would have meant that Gates was legally detained, and Crowley would have been way out on a limb.
Obama was foolish to comment on the case. Was he wrong, though? [i]No.[/i][/quote]That's your opinion. Being partially right isn't exactly being objective or even-handed and that's what Obama should have been. At least he (sort of) apologized for that impulsive and emotionally driven remark. It was totally off the cuff and I hope he doesn't react that way to bigger issues that really have a bearing on this country.[/quote]We're probably talking about different things here. I'm talking about the law, not the politics or decorum (and I've already said Obama should not have commented on this at all).
The charges against Gates were dropped because they are indefensible from a legal standpoint. They amount to false charges. So when I say Obama was not wrong in saying the Cambridge Police acted stupidly, I mean that Obama is correct based on the legal aspects of the case. Obama certainly could have been more even-handed in this and said that Gates acted stupidly as well, but that does not invalidate his statement about Crowley.
If you can point to a legal analysis online which says the Cambridge Police had a valid case against Gates, I'd be interested to read it.
[quote][i]Originally posted by mar#8730;[/i]<br>[quote]Sergeant Crowley [i]did[/i] act stupidly in arresting Gates without probable cause on his private property.[/quote]As stupidly as Gates did for provoking a cop.[/quote]I disagree. Sgt. Crowley has a job to perform-- a professional obligation and oath to uphold as a public servant. Arresting someone on a false charge is at odds with his job and can be a basis for getting disciplined. Cops are human, but that is why they receive training and have strict procedures. Crowley should get some remedial training in conflict resolution. Furthermore, Crowley failed to follow the law and police procedure and provide his badge number, and his police report almost certainly contains deliberate false statements.
Gates was stupid for being rude to an officer, of taking a foolish risk, since officers are armed and may use force to subdue suspects (note: Gates was not a suspect). He breached no professional or public obligations by his actions. Gates, as a 59 year old man, is lucky that Crowley did not wrongly use a taser to impose compliance. [quote][i]Originally posted by mar#8730;[/i]<br>[quote]Gates may have been a jerk, but he acted within his rights.[/quote]Thing is, cops can also be jerks...and totally get away with it.
[/quote]I agree here. This is where Gates blew it, and it has nothing (AFAICT) to do with race. Sure, Gates just got home from a 19 hour flight from China and was probably jetlagged out of his mind, but had he given his ID and asked Crowley, "Am I free to go about my business now?" that would have forced Crowley's hand and ended it. For Crowley to answer in the negative would have meant that Gates was legally detained, and Crowley would have been way out on a limb.
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by i_like_lectric_motors » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:39 am
Here's another good article by someone who gets it:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 97643.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 97643.html
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