What determines new wave from alternative?

[ghosty]

[quote]Originally posted by SwampThing
[br][quote]I always thought Morrissey was funny as hell and we all had a good laugh.[/quote] And after seeing his latest video, seems he might really need that hearing aid now [:D]
[/quote]

Yeah, when did Morrissey turn into a heavier Bruce Campbell?

[Momotaro]

What determines New Wave from Alternative? Time and sound.

I think bpdp3 hit the nail on the head. By 82-83, New Wave was gone. Elvis Costello, Nick Lowe, Lena Lovich...it was all old by then. They had been there and done that. The sound wasn't as new, plain and simple. See, the road was paved for bands like the Smiths and DM and Erasure by a bunch of people back in the early 70's and very early 80's.

To me, by the mid 80's, the labels started to fade a little bit. The sound was called "New Music" by 82, then "Modern Rock" then "Alternative". While it wasn't widely accepted by the masses, the sound wasn't as "new" as it was in 79, if that makes sense. See, the road was paved for bands like the Smiths, DM and Erasure by a bunch of people back in the late 70's and very early 80's.

[ekahob]

[quote]Originally posted by Momotaro
[br]What determines New Wave from Alternative? Time and sound.[/quote]

I agree with that. Time and sound ---- and the Media.

So what is the Media currently labeling bands like Franz Ferdinand, Interpol, The Strokes, Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs, The Killers etc. whose music harkens back to the New Wave era? "Modern Rock"? "Indie"? Has the media lost it's ability to create new labels? Have they gotten lazy or did I miss something?

Let's try some new labels:
Q. "So what do they sound like?" A. "They're a Post Wave band"
"That song is so Indiewave!"
"I went to a new Alternawave club last night."
Q. "So what kind of music do you listen to?" A." I'm into New Wave Redux, you?" "I'm into that whole Rewave movement." "Cool"


Any other ideas?

[Cheetos]

Grunch, you sound a little too serious, so I'll apologize to you, but no one else. I can say for sure they depress me.

What the HELL is this...

"NME names most influential artist ever"

The top 10 is as follows:

1: The Smiths
2: The Beatles
3: Stone Roses
4: David Bowie
5: Sex Pistols
6: Oasis
7: Radiohead
8: Paul Weller/The Jam
9: U2
10: Public Enemy

I suppose Smiths fans will eat this right up.

[SwampThing]

I'm not going to sit here and say they are the most influential band *ever*. Just wanted to point out that they are on the radar of being one of the most influential bands of the last 25 years. I would go as far as to say that they are the most influential band (post-new wave), and continue to inspire many artists. They were truly original with their sound and style and a breath of fresh air to what was at the time a stale music scene. The fact that reviewers of a new bands will reference "the Smiths" when describing that said band sound speaks volumes of their importance.

[KYYX4ever]

[quote]Originally posted by Momotaro
[br]What determines New Wave from Alternative? Time and sound.

I think bpdp3 hit the nail on the head. By 82-83, New Wave was gone. Elvis Costello, Nick Lowe, Lena Lovich...it was all old by then. They had been there and done that. The sound wasn't as new, plain and simple.

To me, by the mid 80's, the labels started to fade a little bit. The sound was called "New Music" by 82, then "Modern Rock" then "Alternative". While it wasn't widely accepted by the masses, the sound wasn't as "new" as it was in 79, if that makes sense.
[/quote]

Yup, I'd agree. Labels or no labels, New Wave WAS kind of alternative in a sense..."alternative" to what was being heavily played on the radio and Kasey Kasem's Top 40. However, "alternative" wasn't really a phrase back then, remember ? The first time I heard "Alternative" being used was in the early 90's with Grunge (Nirvana) and that sort of alt.rock. "Modern Rock" or "College Rock" or "College Radio Music" was one natural result of the early 80's "New Wave". Think about it....the kids who grew up loving NEw Wave were the ones most likely to get into the Smiths/Echo/ etc. Also, since most of us graduated from high school in the late 70's/ early 80's, and went on to college, that was the music we started to hear from our college radio stations. I know that when I went to college ( University of Alaska-Fairbanks) in '86, New Wave was NEVER played. It was this Modern/ College Rock music, unlike anything I'd heard before, and it naturally appealed to a Waver like myself.

In sum, I think New Wave itself was "Alternative", until it sort of faded ( on the radion, anyway)--and then New music naturally morphed into College/Modern Rock ( among other directions). Definately a whole different style of music.

P.S. I LOVE THE SMITHS. Especially the OLD Smiths !![:D]

[nowhere girl]

New wavers that I knew really did listen to both new wave and alternative. Most of us started out listening to Blondie and other early new wave music, listened to bands like the Cure, Depeche Mode, and yes, the Smiths, and when alternative became dominant on KROQ and other music venues, we liked that. Some of us got into punk(I did), goth music(I had friends who liked it but it wasn't my favorite), psychedelic music, glam, cowpunk, punk-influenced metal. When grunge came along, that was where a lot of my friends stopped liking music that was considered "alternative". I hated grunge at the time, but years later, I can listen to it and admit that some of it was pretty good, even though I originally thought it was a commercialized rip-off of punk. With the group that I hung out with, new wave and alternative were just a continuation of the same general idea, to be different from the mainstream.

Nowhere Girl[8D]

[driverx]

I used to call what I listened to alternative music, and then I started calling it progressive, and then I heard that people called groups like Yes, progressive, so I finally came up with a solution. When people asked (ask) me what kind of music I like, I say "good music".

And no one's ever proved me wrong...

[Quite Life]

[quote]Originally posted by Ollie Stench
[br]I'll get this out of the way first off: aside from "What Difference Does It Make" I really don't like the Smiths at all.

The biggest difference I have seen between the late 70's/early 80's New Wave bands and the Alternative bands of the late 80's/early 90's is that the New Wave bands were creating something new, without limits or rules, made possible by the advent of really cheap instruments. Alternative bands were reacting against the pop music of the day.

New Wave seemed a more organic movement with definate originality, Alternative seemed to be just a reactionary move against Debbie Gibson and New Kids on the Block.
[/quote]


Best answer so far and diddos on the Smiths



Kimiii, I know what you mean when the platform that delivered our beloved New Wave tunes in the 80's mutated into something ugly in the 90's. But to add to Ollie's statement about reaction I believe that 90's American alternative bands hated New Wave just like Jocks and Heavey Mettlers did in the 80's case in point Sound Garden, Alice in Chains, and Pearl Jam are as FAR AWAY from the Human League and Japan as it gets. CASE CLOSED!


pizza time gotta go,
jr

[Quite Life]

Cheetos, NME is about as arbatrary as it gets...

Next year it will be a compleetly different list. it will probibly look like this Jack White/The White Stripes, The Strokes, Damon Albarn.....and so on I never pay attention to such fickle rubbish.



jr

[savethewave]

I agree-New Wave seems to end about 83-84...it just wasn't "new" any more.

I think that the overall morose turn that New Wave took in 1983-84 or so ushers in the "alternative" era:

Gene Loves Jezebel-Immigrant
Siouxsie-A Kiss in the Dreamhouse
Cure-Pornography and Japanese Whispers
Smiths-Hatful of Hollow
Joy Division-Albums released in the US for the first time
Fall-Wonderful and frightening World of the Fall
Love and Rockets-first album, Tones on tail-first album, Bauhaus-last Album
Misfits-Earth AD
New Order-Blue Monday becomes #1 club hit, Power Corruption and Lies
Police-final LP
Echo & Bunnymen-Porcupine
Human League-Hysteria
Talking Heads-Speaking in Toungues
Thompson Twins-Quick Step and Side Kicks
OMD-Crush
Depeche Mode-Costuction time Again, people are people, some great reward
Chameleons-Script of the Bridge

...and so on. All of thse albums came out within a year of each other, and I think the overall morose feel of all of these releases did a lot to set the tone for the Post-Punk music to come out after that.

[SwampThing]

[quote]..believe that 90's American alternative bands hated New Wave just like Jocks and Heavey Mettlers did in the 80's...
[/quote]
I disagree. Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkin and Kim Thyail of Soungarden are new wave fans (Soundgarden covered Devo and Smashing Pumpkins have covered some new wave tunes also). I think it has more to do with age. If they were in high school between 78-83 they probably listened to New Wave/Punk. The grunge movement was definitely anti-jock, although jocks ended up jumping on the band wagon and crashing the scene. Well at least that's how I remember it, living in Seattle during the good old grunge days.

As for American bands after 95 I stopped keeping track so you could be right.

It's funny how all of us new wave fans see things so differently after 85 or so. I found american grunge music too be a natural extension of the punk ethic and most of my friends from the new wave days really enjoyed the scene while it lasted. I guess it left a bad taste in the mouth of others.

[Quite Life]

[quote]I disagree. Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkin [/quote]

Your dead wrong! about 10 years ago I read and interview with Billy Corgan and this guy was into Def Leppard when he was a kid. And I was thinkg no wonder Smashing Punpkens sound like shit.

Soundgarden, Soundgarden ohh hell no!!! No Joke go to Guitar Center pick up the guitar instructional book "Play guitar with Led Zepplin" in the chapter on learning bluesy penitonic minors, the mvements look exactly like those in the Soundgarden guitar tab books. Let me finnish this off by putting it this way. Go To http://www.allmusic.com look up Soundgarden what were there influences Led Zep, Black Sabbath and so on... Soundgarden is Heavey Metal which is antithetical to NEW WAVE case closed.....



Thank God for Brit Pop and bands like Blur, Pulp, and others of thier ilk to keep the sanity of us aging New Wavers during the 90's


!,
jr

[ghosty]

Regardless of Smashing Pumkins (Corgan worshipped Cheap Trick too), what about all the other music happening in the 90's? Rave culture for example. You could argue that this was a direct descendent of 80's syth-pop (or rather 12" single remixes of 80's synth pop).

What about quirky bands like The Flaming Lips? The Beta Band? The Eels?

...and of course the aforementioned Brit-Pop.

Most people who criticise 90's music always throw out "grunge" like that was the only thing going on. Did you only listen to Top 40 radio? I had a blast in the 90's and bands like Soundgarden and Pantera were not in my cassette deck. Geez, there was so much great stuff!

[SwampThing]

[quote]...Soundgarden, Soundgarden ohh hell no!!! No Joke go to Guitar Center pick up the guitar instructional book "Play guitar with Led Zepplin" in the chapter ...[/quote]
I was reacting to your assertion that American Alternative bands hated new wave. You have turned into comparing the sound between the two. I know very well the Led Zeppelin influence on Soundgarden, etc. Please re-read my post. I wasn't comparing "sound".
[quote]Your dead wrong! about 10 years ago I read and interview with Billy Corgan and this guy was into Def Leppard when he was a kid. And I was thinkg no wonder Smashing Punpkens sound like shit. [/quote]
We must have read different interviews. I know for fact a few of his influences are Bowie, Bolan, Bahaus and the Cure. Hmmm. Those names sound very familiar. I bet there are one are two New Wave bands that would consider them an influence also. James Iha (Smashing Pumpkins guitarist) listened new wave when he was in Jr High, and High School (as well as def leppard I'm sure [:D]) Smashing Pumpkins have covered the following New Wave songs:

A Night Like This - The Cure
Boys Don't Cry - The Cure
Transmission - Joy Division
Destination Unknown - Missing Person
Never Let Me Down Again - Depeche Mode
You're All I've Got Tonight- The Cars

But wait, there's more. Billy Corgan performed with Bernard Summer of New Order on the song "Turn My Way" from their last album "Get Ready".

I'd also like to point out that most artists have a wide variety of influences. If they didn't, well, most likely the music *really* would sound like shit.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
[quote]Thank God for Brit Pop and bands like Blur, Pulp, and others of thier ilk to keep the sanity of us aging New Wavers during the 90's
[/quote] Yes, I agree. Britpop is my first musical passion, even over New Wave. I just don't think it's unusual to like these bands as well as Smashing Pumkins.