[quote][i]Originally posted by edisonoside[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by XXX[/i]
<br>Noone should compensate artists for their work? Do you work for free?
[/quote]Is money the first thing on your mind when it comes to art?
[/quote]
The first thing that comes to mind is that things are referred by the phrase "work of art." Monetary compensation is usually one of the things that come of work. So, no, it's not the first thing that comes to my mind, but it would be naive to think that work is not something we should expect to be compensated by just because we love what we do. On the other hand, most critics who cry "sell-out" usually have money in their mind first.
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Just what is "Selling Out"?
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by Bitter Almonds » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:38 am
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by KYYX4ever » Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:41 am
Good points all.
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. Most of the time, when one of my old faves get "popular", or their stuff appears on commercials/media/etc., and I stop listening to them anymore, it is because I just can't get into their music any longer. Their sound has changed and evolved and they no longer sound like what they used to. It's ok and normal for a band's sound to evolve, but often I'm just not into their new sound, is all. I am bothered when a band--particularly if it's one i like/love--sells out, but when I think about it, it's really no big deal. Who is it hurting ? What's wrong with a band trying to make some money ?
Here in Albuquerque, home of the Shins ("Know Your Onion"), one of their songs briefly appeared on a McDonald's (BLECH!) commercial, and much of the local scene/fans got mad at them. There was a big argument for a while about did they sell out or not. Considering that they still are relatively unknown, I think the point is moot. Yes, McDonald's is evil, but really----who cares if bands' music appears in commercials. It just gives you another chance to hear their stuff! ( that is, if you still like it anymore--)
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. Most of the time, when one of my old faves get "popular", or their stuff appears on commercials/media/etc., and I stop listening to them anymore, it is because I just can't get into their music any longer. Their sound has changed and evolved and they no longer sound like what they used to. It's ok and normal for a band's sound to evolve, but often I'm just not into their new sound, is all. I am bothered when a band--particularly if it's one i like/love--sells out, but when I think about it, it's really no big deal. Who is it hurting ? What's wrong with a band trying to make some money ?
Here in Albuquerque, home of the Shins ("Know Your Onion"), one of their songs briefly appeared on a McDonald's (BLECH!) commercial, and much of the local scene/fans got mad at them. There was a big argument for a while about did they sell out or not. Considering that they still are relatively unknown, I think the point is moot. Yes, McDonald's is evil, but really----who cares if bands' music appears in commercials. It just gives you another chance to hear their stuff! ( that is, if you still like it anymore--)
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by ghosty » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:39 am
I think the term "sell out" should only apply to a band or artist that does something specifically for a commercial. Many of these 80's acts probably don't own or control their back catalogue and who knows what sort of "massaging" goes on between said artist and those benevolent and charitable record labels....
It's funny though. At WFDU I get requests all the time for Tears For Fears and I have to tell these listeners that we don't have a single record of theirs because "Songs From The Big Chair" was a massive hit and whoever ran the station at the time considered them sell-outs, expunged everything from the record library and banned them from the air. It seems a little ridiculous 20 years later.
It's funny though. At WFDU I get requests all the time for Tears For Fears and I have to tell these listeners that we don't have a single record of theirs because "Songs From The Big Chair" was a massive hit and whoever ran the station at the time considered them sell-outs, expunged everything from the record library and banned them from the air. It seems a little ridiculous 20 years later.
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by Panorama » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:41 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Tebo[/i]
<br>It's funny, I wasn't going to respond to this thread but I didn't think in the postings so far that anyone really hit how I feel about the whole subject. To me there are two definitions of selling out.
The main and most important one is where a band tosses away their originality and falls into the trap of quick and easy formulated money. It's when a band forgets who they are and starts playing music that goes against their original sound.
Now the second one is a band that sells their songs to big companies to be used for commercial reasons. However we need to consider this before passing judgement. You can't even tell if the band really has ownership of their music to begin with. Look who owns the Beatles stuff. Michael Jackson. He owns most of the Beatles library. So you can't blame Paul and Ringo if you see "Revolution" on a sneaker commercial. Trust me they are more pissed then we are![/quote]I don't have a problem with an artist making money from his art -- I'm a photographer and my wife is a graphic designer and fine artist -- we all have to make a living. But come on! -- the Beatles have plenty of money, If Sir Paul is that is that appalled... well he should not have sold the publishing rights in the first place.
Selling out means just that -- selling your art for purposes other than the intention of it's creation - art for art's sake - when you don't need the money.
<br>It's funny, I wasn't going to respond to this thread but I didn't think in the postings so far that anyone really hit how I feel about the whole subject. To me there are two definitions of selling out.
The main and most important one is where a band tosses away their originality and falls into the trap of quick and easy formulated money. It's when a band forgets who they are and starts playing music that goes against their original sound.
Now the second one is a band that sells their songs to big companies to be used for commercial reasons. However we need to consider this before passing judgement. You can't even tell if the band really has ownership of their music to begin with. Look who owns the Beatles stuff. Michael Jackson. He owns most of the Beatles library. So you can't blame Paul and Ringo if you see "Revolution" on a sneaker commercial. Trust me they are more pissed then we are![/quote]I don't have a problem with an artist making money from his art -- I'm a photographer and my wife is a graphic designer and fine artist -- we all have to make a living. But come on! -- the Beatles have plenty of money, If Sir Paul is that is that appalled... well he should not have sold the publishing rights in the first place.
Selling out means just that -- selling your art for purposes other than the intention of it's creation - art for art's sake - when you don't need the money.
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by Bitter Almonds » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:17 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by ghosty[/i]
<br>It's funny though. At WFDU I get requests all the time for Tears For Fears and I have to tell these listeners that we don't have a single record of theirs because "Songs From The Big Chair" was a massive hit and whoever ran the station at the time considered them sell-outs, expunged everything from the record library and banned them from the air. It seems a little ridiculous 20 years later.
[/quote]
That's how it all seems to me. The ideas behind "selling out" would mean I'd have to refer to Ennio Morricone and Goblin as "sell-outs" because their music was commercially employed in big-budget AND exploitation films - but their music kicks ass multiple times over most anything artists who didn't sell out could muster.
<br>It's funny though. At WFDU I get requests all the time for Tears For Fears and I have to tell these listeners that we don't have a single record of theirs because "Songs From The Big Chair" was a massive hit and whoever ran the station at the time considered them sell-outs, expunged everything from the record library and banned them from the air. It seems a little ridiculous 20 years later.
[/quote]
That's how it all seems to me. The ideas behind "selling out" would mean I'd have to refer to Ennio Morricone and Goblin as "sell-outs" because their music was commercially employed in big-budget AND exploitation films - but their music kicks ass multiple times over most anything artists who didn't sell out could muster.
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by edisonoside » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:39 am
To put it short;...Selling out is,..when every twelve year old girl knows who you are!
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by Surly » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:51 am
Here's my take on selling out: A band or artist that starts out small but eventually becomes famous (with multi-million selling albums) doesn't necessarily constitute "selling out." That term really should apply when an artist changes his/her core values (such as "watering down" what they do) with the express intent of making more money/becoming popular, etc. For instance, let's say that Neil Young (the antithesis of a sellout) woke up one day and said to himself "Screw it - I want to sell 10 million albums" and decided to work with a bunch of professional songwriters to craft a hit - THAT would be selling out.
I don't necessarily think that an artist licensing a song for a commercial is selling out; however, if an artist appears in a soda commercial, drinking the soda and going on about how great it is, then yes, that would be selling out. The Shins were a baby band and probably did the commercial just get the word out about their music, to get some money for tour support, maybe finance their own studio to record more music, etc. But if Paul McCartney were to suddenly appear on my TV with a can of Pepsi in his hand, changing the lyrics of "Revolution" to sound like "The Pepsi Generation," then yes, I'd consider him a bit of a sellout. (Most Country and R&B performers consider themselves "entertainers," so the fact that they are in a commercial doesn't make them a sellout. They've always wanted to be stars. I'm not knocking them, it's just a different ballgame).
True, Tears For Fears did go into the studio with the express intent of having a hit record when they began record [i]Songs From The Big Chair[/i]. But was it really selling out? Maybe they were hoping the first album would sell millions, but it didn't. Both albums are great - the first (obviously my favorite) is dark and haunting, but the second album is a brilliant pop record, and I think "Change" is as poppy as anything on the [i]Songs[/i]... album. I don't think "pop" is a dirty word...hell, half of my so-called new wave favorites are really just pop songs. The fact that they didn't sell millions doesn't make 'em any better than the songs that did. I gave up the childish notion of rejecting anything popular once I finished high school. If my favorite song by a band is the hit song, I'll admit it...I won't automatically choose an album track just to sound cool. I like what I like.
But back to the topic at hand: Just because an artist's sound/music changes doesn't mean they were trying to sell out. If a band that started with one sound selling 50 records ends up selling a million records with a different sound, that also doesn't necessarily make them a sellout. I expect artists to grow. I want each artist to have their own identifiable sound, but I don't want them to keep making the same record over and over. Sometimes having a hit record is all about timing. Just because a record isn't a hit doesn't mean "the record company didn't promote it enough"; consequently, just because a record becomes a hit doesn't mean the label is "pushing it down our throats" (I HATE THAT TERM). There are a variety of factors as to why a record does or does not become a hit (and it has a hell of a lot more to do with the jackasses at radio and MTV than at the labels).
Sometimes, a band just wants to please its label so they won't get dropped. Cheap Trick's mid-'80s albums didn't sell well, so the label sent them to work with "song doctors" to help craft a hit; the result was the #1 hit "The Flame" in 1988. Hard to say that was a sellout, although it certainly fits the parameters. Was it really the band's intention? Or were they just trying to stay afloat since their best days seemed to be behind them at that point?
Counterpoint, anyone?
I don't necessarily think that an artist licensing a song for a commercial is selling out; however, if an artist appears in a soda commercial, drinking the soda and going on about how great it is, then yes, that would be selling out. The Shins were a baby band and probably did the commercial just get the word out about their music, to get some money for tour support, maybe finance their own studio to record more music, etc. But if Paul McCartney were to suddenly appear on my TV with a can of Pepsi in his hand, changing the lyrics of "Revolution" to sound like "The Pepsi Generation," then yes, I'd consider him a bit of a sellout. (Most Country and R&B performers consider themselves "entertainers," so the fact that they are in a commercial doesn't make them a sellout. They've always wanted to be stars. I'm not knocking them, it's just a different ballgame).
True, Tears For Fears did go into the studio with the express intent of having a hit record when they began record [i]Songs From The Big Chair[/i]. But was it really selling out? Maybe they were hoping the first album would sell millions, but it didn't. Both albums are great - the first (obviously my favorite) is dark and haunting, but the second album is a brilliant pop record, and I think "Change" is as poppy as anything on the [i]Songs[/i]... album. I don't think "pop" is a dirty word...hell, half of my so-called new wave favorites are really just pop songs. The fact that they didn't sell millions doesn't make 'em any better than the songs that did. I gave up the childish notion of rejecting anything popular once I finished high school. If my favorite song by a band is the hit song, I'll admit it...I won't automatically choose an album track just to sound cool. I like what I like.
But back to the topic at hand: Just because an artist's sound/music changes doesn't mean they were trying to sell out. If a band that started with one sound selling 50 records ends up selling a million records with a different sound, that also doesn't necessarily make them a sellout. I expect artists to grow. I want each artist to have their own identifiable sound, but I don't want them to keep making the same record over and over. Sometimes having a hit record is all about timing. Just because a record isn't a hit doesn't mean "the record company didn't promote it enough"; consequently, just because a record becomes a hit doesn't mean the label is "pushing it down our throats" (I HATE THAT TERM). There are a variety of factors as to why a record does or does not become a hit (and it has a hell of a lot more to do with the jackasses at radio and MTV than at the labels).
Sometimes, a band just wants to please its label so they won't get dropped. Cheap Trick's mid-'80s albums didn't sell well, so the label sent them to work with "song doctors" to help craft a hit; the result was the #1 hit "The Flame" in 1988. Hard to say that was a sellout, although it certainly fits the parameters. Was it really the band's intention? Or were they just trying to stay afloat since their best days seemed to be behind them at that point?
Counterpoint, anyone?
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by Bitter Almonds » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:52 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by edisonoside[/i]
To put it short;...Selling out is,..when every twelve year old girl knows who you are!
[/quote]
That would make Mark Mothersbaugh and Holger Czukay enormous sell-outs... all kinds of kids are familiar with Nickelodeon programming [8D]
To put it short;...Selling out is,..when every twelve year old girl knows who you are!
[/quote]
That would make Mark Mothersbaugh and Holger Czukay enormous sell-outs... all kinds of kids are familiar with Nickelodeon programming [8D]
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by Bitter Almonds » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:27 am
You know what I think is worse than "selling out"? Releasing "limited editions". This creates a market of collectibles where prices go up,up, up, and only those with plenty of money will have the privilege of listening to the artist's music. The NewOrder topic brought this to mind when I remembered how their current box set had a 5 disc "limited release" in England. Now, I love NewOrder as much as the next guy here... and that's what pisses me off even more because that "limited release" is complete bullshit, you know? NewOrder jipped their American fans just like that. Hell! They were even toying around with the idea of releasing their whole discography, but now they literally gave their fans handouts and crumbs and called it a "limited release" [xx(]
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by Frank_Chickens » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:28 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Dan Coogan[/i]
<br>http://www.boingboing.net/2003/08/14/devo_sells_out_again.html
Thursday, August 14, 2003
Devo sells out? (Again?)
From AdAge.com:
"Whip It," the 1980 song that was the anthem of the band Devo's rage against a society dehumanized by industry and commercialism
[/quote]
Wish they'd done their homework as "Jocko Homo" is really their anthem as the song tells you where they're coming from.
As for Sting, he sold out from "Every Breath You Take" (ugh, WHAT a horrible song!) onwards.
<br>http://www.boingboing.net/2003/08/14/devo_sells_out_again.html
Thursday, August 14, 2003
Devo sells out? (Again?)
From AdAge.com:
"Whip It," the 1980 song that was the anthem of the band Devo's rage against a society dehumanized by industry and commercialism
[/quote]
Wish they'd done their homework as "Jocko Homo" is really their anthem as the song tells you where they're coming from.
As for Sting, he sold out from "Every Breath You Take" (ugh, WHAT a horrible song!) onwards.
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by KYYX4ever » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:34 am
Surly,
well-stated, and I agree. I had also said before that i think it's okay for an artist's sound to evolve--I expect it. It would be boring if all their albums sounded the same. As you said, it's a fine line between an artist's natural progression and "selling out".
well-stated, and I agree. I had also said before that i think it's okay for an artist's sound to evolve--I expect it. It would be boring if all their albums sounded the same. As you said, it's a fine line between an artist's natural progression and "selling out".
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by Surly » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:49 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by XXX[/i]
<br>You know what I think is worse than "selling out"? Releasing "limited editions". This creates a market of collectibles where prices go up,up, up, and only those with plenty of money will have the privilege of listening to the artist's music. The NewOrder topic brought this to mind when I remembered how their current box set had a 5 disc "limited release" in England. Now, I love NewOrder as much as the next guy here... and that's what pisses me off even more because that "limited release" is complete bullshit, you know? NewOrder jipped their American fans just like that. Hell! They were even toying around with the idea of releasing their whole discography, but now they literally gave their fans handouts and crumbs and called it a "limited release" [xx(]
[/quote]
It's usually the label that decides to release a limited edition version of an album, and depending on an artist's contract, the artist doesn't always have a say in it. Also, they sometimes release limited editions or verisons with extra tracks in certain territories to combat cheap imports (Japan is a great example of that).
<br>You know what I think is worse than "selling out"? Releasing "limited editions". This creates a market of collectibles where prices go up,up, up, and only those with plenty of money will have the privilege of listening to the artist's music. The NewOrder topic brought this to mind when I remembered how their current box set had a 5 disc "limited release" in England. Now, I love NewOrder as much as the next guy here... and that's what pisses me off even more because that "limited release" is complete bullshit, you know? NewOrder jipped their American fans just like that. Hell! They were even toying around with the idea of releasing their whole discography, but now they literally gave their fans handouts and crumbs and called it a "limited release" [xx(]
[/quote]
It's usually the label that decides to release a limited edition version of an album, and depending on an artist's contract, the artist doesn't always have a say in it. Also, they sometimes release limited editions or verisons with extra tracks in certain territories to combat cheap imports (Japan is a great example of that).
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by G.Gone » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:25 pm
Maybe it's not my total defination of "Sell-Out"
But the mention of The Rolling Stones in this thread makes me want to share a life experience that is centered around the Stones and the notion of "sell-out" as well as the impact on a fan.
You'll find the article here:
http://www.independisc.com/Tremens/Odds&Sods.htm#Stones
Enjoy.
But the mention of The Rolling Stones in this thread makes me want to share a life experience that is centered around the Stones and the notion of "sell-out" as well as the impact on a fan.
You'll find the article here:
http://www.independisc.com/Tremens/Odds&Sods.htm#Stones
Enjoy.
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by Panorama » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:19 am
Just saw a Payless shoesource TV ad with New Order's "Bizarre Love Triangle" -- it was sung by a female singer. My wife saw it the same time I did and just about cried, thinking that her favorite band of all time has given in to this.
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by schwenko » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:14 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by Dan Coogan[/i]
<br>Just saw a Payless shoesource TV ad with New Order's "Bizarre Love Triangle" -- it was sung by a female singer. My wife saw it the same time I did and just about cried, thinking that her favorite band of all time has given in to this.
---------------------------
"Photography with a Vision"
http://www.cooganphoto.com
[/quote]
Their inegrity (sp?) collapsed once they signed with London [:(]
<br>Just saw a Payless shoesource TV ad with New Order's "Bizarre Love Triangle" -- it was sung by a female singer. My wife saw it the same time I did and just about cried, thinking that her favorite band of all time has given in to this.
---------------------------
"Photography with a Vision"
http://www.cooganphoto.com
[/quote]
Their inegrity (sp?) collapsed once they signed with London [:(]
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