It was left vague in the first flick, with them talking idealistically about the benefits of not sleeping together. But then they wake up in in the morning with that just-f*&ked-look - Linklaters wink that this wasn't all completely idealistic bullshit right? The sequel just confirms it.
Man, we're WAY OT. Sorry!
[quote][i]Originally posted by XXX[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by myirwin[/i]
<br>We don't really need the "right" answer though right? Poetic license and all that? Anyone see the ending of "Before Sunset"? *SPOILER WARNING* Jesse's in Celine's apartment. There's tension because he's late for his plane, Celine's singing that dorky song, and you don't know what he's going to do and then pift, the movie just ends. Some people were pissed - they couldn't belive it ended that way. Others said "Awesome, perfect!" That's life right? You don't know what's going to happen. You may not ever know what the "truth" is. You can fill it in with your imagination or your self-determination.
[/quote]
I must be pretty dense, but I always thought Jesse and Celine didn't sleep together in the first film (I guess I'm one of those who has to have the visuals to go along with the story [:p] ), but they said so in their conversation at the park and then in their ride to Celine's place [8D][:X]
On topic: He's a ghost.
[/quote]
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The Meaning of "Love Vigilantes"
48 posts
• Page 2 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
by Frau_Blucher » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:34 am
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by oneno » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:11 am
Her's one reviewers take on it:
I've heard many conflicting theories on this song, so let's clear them up now. It's a subtle anti-war song (which still doesn't make it "folk") -- so subtle that the more optimistic reviewers believe it's about nothing more than a telegram mix-up. Not so. Let's look closely at the lyrics.
The song opens with a soldier who has come "from the land of the sun," after fighting in a war that was won with "rifles and grenades, and some help from God." He wants to see his wife and child again in the chorus, a bit panicked and yearning, because he has been "so alone, you see." Keep in mind those bits of phrases.
The next verse details that he "finally got (his) leave," that he "flew through the sky -- my convictions could not lie" and this telling insight: "For my country I would die and I will see it soon."
The final verse, he comes home to find his wife "lay(ing) upon the floor, and with tears her eyes were sore -- I did not know why." We are then told that he looks in her hand and spies a telegram that reads Your husband was a "brave, brave man" but that he "was dead."
Once you absorb that, you'll understand the second meaning of "land of the sun," of "finally got my leave," of why the soldier has to remind himself that his "convictions could not lie" while "flying home." He's a ghost. The compact, bright surface of this song has been hiding a hopeless emotional payoff.
I've heard many conflicting theories on this song, so let's clear them up now. It's a subtle anti-war song (which still doesn't make it "folk") -- so subtle that the more optimistic reviewers believe it's about nothing more than a telegram mix-up. Not so. Let's look closely at the lyrics.
The song opens with a soldier who has come "from the land of the sun," after fighting in a war that was won with "rifles and grenades, and some help from God." He wants to see his wife and child again in the chorus, a bit panicked and yearning, because he has been "so alone, you see." Keep in mind those bits of phrases.
The next verse details that he "finally got (his) leave," that he "flew through the sky -- my convictions could not lie" and this telling insight: "For my country I would die and I will see it soon."
The final verse, he comes home to find his wife "lay(ing) upon the floor, and with tears her eyes were sore -- I did not know why." We are then told that he looks in her hand and spies a telegram that reads Your husband was a "brave, brave man" but that he "was dead."
Once you absorb that, you'll understand the second meaning of "land of the sun," of "finally got my leave," of why the soldier has to remind himself that his "convictions could not lie" while "flying home." He's a ghost. The compact, bright surface of this song has been hiding a hopeless emotional payoff.
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:27 am
Wow, I can't believe my meandering musings on the climax of Love Vigilantes garnered the worth of a whole thread! To be perfectly honest, I actually thought of starting this very thread myself but decided against it as I figured there just would'nt be enough people who were interested. Thank you Nero Lance for your better judgement! The song is worthy of discussion as it leaves much to the imagination.
I have to begin by saying that Low Life was my first New Order album. Sure, I loved Tempatation, Confusion, Blue Monday and all the other pre Low Life hits but this was one I had to buy. The Low Life love affair began with the simple yet dramatic album cover. And this was a nice big 12" vinyl cardboard sleeve I'm talking about. You know what I mean - when you could really marvel at the graphic design and were not seperated from the art by hard, clear plastic. When Peter Saville could wrap a magnificent vellum band around the utilitarian packaging emblazoning it with THE most classic of the modern typefaces: Helvetica, named after the Swiss town of Helvetia. Yes, I too am a graphic designer and am indebted to Peter Saville for his inspiration in my career choice. Because I wanted to design like he did. I wanted design to define me. I wanted to design like I was designing a New Order album cover.
Once I got past the sleeve and put the record on the family turntable in the living room, I was utterly blown away by those first four drum whacks by our favorite drummer Steven. And then immediately into that harmonica hook.....um, I was owned by Low Life. And it started with Love Vigilantes. And that record was on repeat for hours at a time. And the mystery of Love Vigilantes has been with me for the past eighteen some odd years. I have to say though, that upon the reading of numerous books and articles, the puzzle of Love Vigilantes has never been answered. I think the only one who has the true answer is barney himself and when I meet him - one day - I swear by all I hold holy that I will ask him. [:p]
But Low Life is a fantastic album. Mysterious and evocative with wonderful narratives. Even Elegia provides a narrative in a musical sense. I always felt this album was slightly under rated by critics and fans alike. This is true New Order in my opinion. Poetic, profound - the slightly gritty production, the analog electronics, lots of guitar strumming and bass hooking (pun intended) - Low Life is one of my top five favorite albums,easily. And I owe it in no small part to Love Vigilantes [;)]
I have to begin by saying that Low Life was my first New Order album. Sure, I loved Tempatation, Confusion, Blue Monday and all the other pre Low Life hits but this was one I had to buy. The Low Life love affair began with the simple yet dramatic album cover. And this was a nice big 12" vinyl cardboard sleeve I'm talking about. You know what I mean - when you could really marvel at the graphic design and were not seperated from the art by hard, clear plastic. When Peter Saville could wrap a magnificent vellum band around the utilitarian packaging emblazoning it with THE most classic of the modern typefaces: Helvetica, named after the Swiss town of Helvetia. Yes, I too am a graphic designer and am indebted to Peter Saville for his inspiration in my career choice. Because I wanted to design like he did. I wanted design to define me. I wanted to design like I was designing a New Order album cover.
Once I got past the sleeve and put the record on the family turntable in the living room, I was utterly blown away by those first four drum whacks by our favorite drummer Steven. And then immediately into that harmonica hook.....um, I was owned by Low Life. And it started with Love Vigilantes. And that record was on repeat for hours at a time. And the mystery of Love Vigilantes has been with me for the past eighteen some odd years. I have to say though, that upon the reading of numerous books and articles, the puzzle of Love Vigilantes has never been answered. I think the only one who has the true answer is barney himself and when I meet him - one day - I swear by all I hold holy that I will ask him. [:p]
But Low Life is a fantastic album. Mysterious and evocative with wonderful narratives. Even Elegia provides a narrative in a musical sense. I always felt this album was slightly under rated by critics and fans alike. This is true New Order in my opinion. Poetic, profound - the slightly gritty production, the analog electronics, lots of guitar strumming and bass hooking (pun intended) - Low Life is one of my top five favorite albums,easily. And I owe it in no small part to Love Vigilantes [;)]
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:39 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by hensoneno[/i]
<br>Her's one reviewers take on it:
I've heard many conflicting theories on this song, so let's clear them up now. It's a subtle anti-war song (which still doesn't make it "folk") -- so subtle that the more optimistic reviewers believe it's about nothing more than a telegram mix-up. Not so. Let's look closely at the lyrics.
The song opens with a soldier who has come "from the land of the sun," after fighting in a war that was won with "rifles and grenades, and some help from God." He wants to see his wife and child again in the chorus, a bit panicked and yearning, because he has been "so alone, you see." Keep in mind those bits of phrases.
The next verse details that he "finally got (his) leave," that he "flew through the sky -- my convictions could not lie" and this telling insight: "For my country I would die and I will see it soon."
The final verse, he comes home to find his wife "lay(ing) upon the floor, and with tears her eyes were sore -- I did not know why." We are then told that he looks in her hand and spies a telegram that reads Your husband was a "brave, brave man" but that he "was dead."
Once you absorb that, you'll understand the second meaning of "land of the sun," of "finally got my leave," of why the soldier has to remind himself that his "convictions could not lie" while "flying home." He's a ghost. The compact, bright surface of this song has been hiding a hopeless emotional payoff.
[/quote]
I hear what you're saying hensoneno and actually that's how I personally interpret the lyrics. It's what I want them to mean. But all the phrases you quote could mean other things and this is a problem I've come across with other big fans. The "land of the sun" could mean Japan, fighting with "some help from God" could mean a holy war, "for my country I would die and I will see it soon" could mean that he'll just see his country soon. Maybe his tour of duty is up. And the telegram could very possibly well be a horrible mistake. New Order are known for their ironic twists, after all.
Know that I'm not disagreeing with you. Again, I personally do agree with you. But only Barney has the exact answer.
<br>Her's one reviewers take on it:
I've heard many conflicting theories on this song, so let's clear them up now. It's a subtle anti-war song (which still doesn't make it "folk") -- so subtle that the more optimistic reviewers believe it's about nothing more than a telegram mix-up. Not so. Let's look closely at the lyrics.
The song opens with a soldier who has come "from the land of the sun," after fighting in a war that was won with "rifles and grenades, and some help from God." He wants to see his wife and child again in the chorus, a bit panicked and yearning, because he has been "so alone, you see." Keep in mind those bits of phrases.
The next verse details that he "finally got (his) leave," that he "flew through the sky -- my convictions could not lie" and this telling insight: "For my country I would die and I will see it soon."
The final verse, he comes home to find his wife "lay(ing) upon the floor, and with tears her eyes were sore -- I did not know why." We are then told that he looks in her hand and spies a telegram that reads Your husband was a "brave, brave man" but that he "was dead."
Once you absorb that, you'll understand the second meaning of "land of the sun," of "finally got my leave," of why the soldier has to remind himself that his "convictions could not lie" while "flying home." He's a ghost. The compact, bright surface of this song has been hiding a hopeless emotional payoff.
[/quote]
I hear what you're saying hensoneno and actually that's how I personally interpret the lyrics. It's what I want them to mean. But all the phrases you quote could mean other things and this is a problem I've come across with other big fans. The "land of the sun" could mean Japan, fighting with "some help from God" could mean a holy war, "for my country I would die and I will see it soon" could mean that he'll just see his country soon. Maybe his tour of duty is up. And the telegram could very possibly well be a horrible mistake. New Order are known for their ironic twists, after all.
Know that I'm not disagreeing with you. Again, I personally do agree with you. But only Barney has the exact answer.
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by 2Nu » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:53 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>Wow, I can't believe my meandering musings on the climax of Love Vigilantes garnered the worth of a whole thread! To be perfectly honest, I actually thought of starting this very thread myself but decided against it as I figured there just would'nt be enough people who were interested. Thank you Nero Lance for your better judgement! The song is worthy of discussion as it leaves much to the imagination.
[/quote]
Hey marvymarv, remember I was the one who gotcha started on that one by posting those (LV) lyrics on that now <a href="http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3189&whichpage=3" target="blank">'infamous'</a> thread? [;)]
How funny it's come full circle[:D]
<br>Wow, I can't believe my meandering musings on the climax of Love Vigilantes garnered the worth of a whole thread! To be perfectly honest, I actually thought of starting this very thread myself but decided against it as I figured there just would'nt be enough people who were interested. Thank you Nero Lance for your better judgement! The song is worthy of discussion as it leaves much to the imagination.
[/quote]
Hey marvymarv, remember I was the one who gotcha started on that one by posting those (LV) lyrics on that now <a href="http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3189&whichpage=3" target="blank">'infamous'</a> thread? [;)]
How funny it's come full circle[:D]
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by n/a5 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:30 am
Can we try and deconstruct this from the bottom up: What war are they refering to (if any) and what is the time period? Perhaps if we start at this point we can gain a deeper insight into the song.
Land Of The Sun: India, Burma, Japan, Middle East, Africa - heck the British fought everywhere but clearly not Europe which is not famed for its SUN. So a colonial war?
Flew through the sky - well maybe he actualy flew in a plane. So we are in the 20th century. WW I...troops were transported by ship or train in these days right? Airplanes existed but not till later were they used in combat. I don't think they used them for troop transport.
War that must be won on the name of truth - everybody thinks the war they are in must be won. In the name of truth - can this be WW II? Hitler burning books...reworking the map of Europe.
Rifles and Grenades/////Telegram - Clearly a 20th century war...this narrows things bit. Telegrams weren't used much in the late 20th century so can we say this refers to a war, period or certain sentiment around the time of WW II or earlier. He could be refering to the post WW I Middle East (Lawrence of Arabia days) where help from God, Truth and all that sun would fit in.
Land Of The Sun: India, Burma, Japan, Middle East, Africa - heck the British fought everywhere but clearly not Europe which is not famed for its SUN. So a colonial war?
Flew through the sky - well maybe he actualy flew in a plane. So we are in the 20th century. WW I...troops were transported by ship or train in these days right? Airplanes existed but not till later were they used in combat. I don't think they used them for troop transport.
War that must be won on the name of truth - everybody thinks the war they are in must be won. In the name of truth - can this be WW II? Hitler burning books...reworking the map of Europe.
Rifles and Grenades/////Telegram - Clearly a 20th century war...this narrows things bit. Telegrams weren't used much in the late 20th century so can we say this refers to a war, period or certain sentiment around the time of WW II or earlier. He could be refering to the post WW I Middle East (Lawrence of Arabia days) where help from God, Truth and all that sun would fit in.
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:11 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by klgawx[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>Wow, I can't believe my meandering musings on the climax of Love Vigilantes garnered the worth of a whole thread! To be perfectly honest, I actually thought of starting this very thread myself but decided against it as I figured there just would'nt be enough people who were interested. Thank you Nero Lance for your better judgement! The song is worthy of discussion as it leaves much to the imagination.
[/quote]
Hey marvymarv, remember I was the one who gotcha started on that one by posting those (LV) lyrics on that now <a href="http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3189&whichpage=3" target="blank">'infamous'</a> thread? [;)]
How funny it's come full circle[:D]
[/quote]
Yes, I totally remember klgawx! The thread that dare not speak it's name, LOL! One of many, as I recall [:D] Ah, the good old days. We need another controversial thread that'll keep us glued to our computers for hours on end! So funny...[8D]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>Wow, I can't believe my meandering musings on the climax of Love Vigilantes garnered the worth of a whole thread! To be perfectly honest, I actually thought of starting this very thread myself but decided against it as I figured there just would'nt be enough people who were interested. Thank you Nero Lance for your better judgement! The song is worthy of discussion as it leaves much to the imagination.
[/quote]
Hey marvymarv, remember I was the one who gotcha started on that one by posting those (LV) lyrics on that now <a href="http://www.nwoutpost.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3189&whichpage=3" target="blank">'infamous'</a> thread? [;)]
How funny it's come full circle[:D]
[/quote]
Yes, I totally remember klgawx! The thread that dare not speak it's name, LOL! One of many, as I recall [:D] Ah, the good old days. We need another controversial thread that'll keep us glued to our computers for hours on end! So funny...[8D]
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:24 am
OK, this is good. I like to look at things from the other side. Again, my allegiance is to the more poetic version of the song where the spirit rushes home only to find out that he's dead but yeah, let's try to deconstruct the song here. Land of the sun certainly would indicate the Asian continent. Rifles, grenades, telegrams, flying - definitely 20th century, and after WWI. Asians were involved in WWII, there's the Korean War and of course Vietnam. Which one had the most flying going on? The most remembrance of flying? I'm thinking WWII. Who could forget the kamikaze pilots?
"Oh, I flew through the sky, for my country I would die" is likely what a kamikaze pilot would be thinking.
Thoughts?
"Oh, I flew through the sky, for my country I would die" is likely what a kamikaze pilot would be thinking.
Thoughts?
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by n/a5 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:22 am
Ok what about the vigilante thing. Certainly a word you don't throw around in everyday conversation....and almost never in a song. Taking justice into your own hands...did justice (think of it as the State or nation in this sense) take love into its own hands? A bit to clever play on words???
Or did some other guy take matters into his own hands....sees this lovely lady all alone longing for love. Maybe the singer was a bit too into the war...he is certainly trying to convince us he is a loyal soldier and believed in what he was doing (for my country I would die) So the wife feels neglected...some new guy steps in...is he the Love Vigilante? This is reading beyond the song so I admit it is a bit of a stretch. And of course the song is "Love Vigilantes...plural.
Or is the Love Vigilante the other side? Taking the spiritual look again...the other side kills him right...certainly they think they are fighting for justice truth etc. Well they Kill love in the name of justice.
Or did some other guy take matters into his own hands....sees this lovely lady all alone longing for love. Maybe the singer was a bit too into the war...he is certainly trying to convince us he is a loyal soldier and believed in what he was doing (for my country I would die) So the wife feels neglected...some new guy steps in...is he the Love Vigilante? This is reading beyond the song so I admit it is a bit of a stretch. And of course the song is "Love Vigilantes...plural.
Or is the Love Vigilante the other side? Taking the spiritual look again...the other side kills him right...certainly they think they are fighting for justice truth etc. Well they Kill love in the name of justice.
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by n/a5 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:27 am
Never thought of it as a Kamikaze pilot thing. The song sounds like a letter at a point doesn't it? He is narrating it to someone? A suicide note perhaps? Is this him in heaven explaining why he did it?
Does she the wife top herself after getting the telegram?
Play on the whole love vigilante thing again...doing it for love's sake not for justice?
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>OK, this is good. I like to look at things from the other side. Again, my allegiance is to the more poetic version of the song where the spirit rushes home only to find out that he's dead but yeah, let's try to deconstruct the song here. Land of the sun certainly would indicate the Asian continent. Rifles, grenades, telegrams, flying - definitely 20th century, and after WWI. Asians were involved in WWII, there's the Korean War and of course Vietnam. Which one had the most flying going on? The most remembrance of flying? I'm thinking WWII. Who could forget the kamikaze pilots?
"Oh, I flew through the sky, for my country I would die" is likely what a kamikaze pilot would be thinking.
Thoughts?
[/quote]
Does she the wife top herself after getting the telegram?
Play on the whole love vigilante thing again...doing it for love's sake not for justice?
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>OK, this is good. I like to look at things from the other side. Again, my allegiance is to the more poetic version of the song where the spirit rushes home only to find out that he's dead but yeah, let's try to deconstruct the song here. Land of the sun certainly would indicate the Asian continent. Rifles, grenades, telegrams, flying - definitely 20th century, and after WWI. Asians were involved in WWII, there's the Korean War and of course Vietnam. Which one had the most flying going on? The most remembrance of flying? I'm thinking WWII. Who could forget the kamikaze pilots?
"Oh, I flew through the sky, for my country I would die" is likely what a kamikaze pilot would be thinking.
Thoughts?
[/quote]
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:44 am
I swear, New Order are one band that comes up with the most "out of left field" titles for their songs. Not sure who the vigilante of this song is but I doubt it's a third person or entity. Then again, the vigilante could be fate itself, taking vengeance upon the poor soul (representative of the nation or mankind itself) for going to war and the longing, yearning, pain we suffer for it is the price of love & war that we must pay. Um, did someone just put on the Republic album? Cuz I'm hearing "World" right now...*that's the price of love*...[;)] But one can begin to see how this could be construed as an anti war song. Poetic AND philosophical, I love it.
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by n/a5 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:51 am
I don't want to stray too far from the topic but speaking of left field, titles and names....haven't they always had a bit of a hard time explaining away the misconceptions about their name...Joy Division then New Order.
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>I swear, New Order are one band that comes up with the most "out of left field" titles for their songs. Not sure who the vigilante of this song is but I doubt it's a third person or entity. Then again, the vigilante could be fate itself, taking vengeance upon the poor soul (representative of the nation or mankind itself) for going to war and the longing, yearning, pain we suffer for it is the price of love & war that we must pay. Um, did someone just put on the Republic album? Cuz I'm hearing "World" right now...*that's the price of love*...[;)] But one can begin to see how this could be construed as an anti war song. Poetic AND philosophical, I love it.
[/quote]
[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>I swear, New Order are one band that comes up with the most "out of left field" titles for their songs. Not sure who the vigilante of this song is but I doubt it's a third person or entity. Then again, the vigilante could be fate itself, taking vengeance upon the poor soul (representative of the nation or mankind itself) for going to war and the longing, yearning, pain we suffer for it is the price of love & war that we must pay. Um, did someone just put on the Republic album? Cuz I'm hearing "World" right now...*that's the price of love*...[;)] But one can begin to see how this could be construed as an anti war song. Poetic AND philosophical, I love it.
[/quote]
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by MARV » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:20 am
Yes, indeed. But more so in the earlier days. The Nazi connection is more coincidental than anything. Barney or Hooky sometimes wearing armband fashions on their biceps only fueled the rumors.
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by 2Nu » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:36 am
Heck while we're at it, might as well start analysis threads for
<a href="http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neworder/1963.html" target="blank">'1963'</a> and <a href="http://www.lyricsdownload.com/order-new-touched-by-the-hand-of-god-lyrics.html" target="blank">'Touched By The Hand of God'</a>[:D]
<a href="http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neworder/1963.html" target="blank">'1963'</a> and <a href="http://www.lyricsdownload.com/order-new-touched-by-the-hand-of-god-lyrics.html" target="blank">'Touched By The Hand of God'</a>[:D]
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by Frau_Blucher » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:04 am
[quote][i]Originally posted by klgawx[/i]
<br>Heck while we're at it, might as well start analysis threads for
<a href="http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neworder/1963.html" target="blank">'1963'</a> and <a href="http://www.lyricsdownload.com/order-new-touched-by-the-hand-of-god-lyrics.html" target="blank">'Touched By The Hand of God'</a>[:D]
[/quote]
Oh crap!!! That's so eeevil. 1963 has always f*&ked with me. Love it but don't get it. Originally thought it might be from a gay man's point of view but then he talks about another wife so maybe it's from a female perspective. Then I tried to make heads or tails of 1963 and Kennedy's assasination (ala Human League's "Seconds") but no luck there. I am EAGER to hear responses.
<br>Heck while we're at it, might as well start analysis threads for
<a href="http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neworder/1963.html" target="blank">'1963'</a> and <a href="http://www.lyricsdownload.com/order-new-touched-by-the-hand-of-god-lyrics.html" target="blank">'Touched By The Hand of God'</a>[:D]
[/quote]
Oh crap!!! That's so eeevil. 1963 has always f*&ked with me. Love it but don't get it. Originally thought it might be from a gay man's point of view but then he talks about another wife so maybe it's from a female perspective. Then I tried to make heads or tails of 1963 and Kennedy's assasination (ala Human League's "Seconds") but no luck there. I am EAGER to hear responses.
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