Most Divisive Issue?

[eight6]

Speaking of unanswered questions, anyone care to take a stab at why the "language barrier" impedes the progress of African Americans, yet other folks seem to be able to overcome this hurdle in stride with a mother tongue that doesn't have English as it's basis?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[beatschool]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>Ok Beatschool, you got me. Everybody loves white people and there exists absolutely no racism, exploitation of "white guilt", double standards, high black on white crime rate ... none of it's real at all. We are just one great big multicultural rainbow of happiness and unity in the good old U.S.A. I'm sorry if I alarmed you - sleep well knowing that you're right and I'm wrong.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/motors/offend.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>


[/quote]

Another cop-out. I never stated that racial harmony exists. You're turning into a regular Jimbo here by making shit up and claiming it was what I intended. Making up shit hasn't generally been your style. You're doing everything in your power to avoid answering the question. I have never stated that Whites have not been affected by racism, been victims of racism, etc. What I'm trying to get you to clarify is your statement that Whites are the predominant "victims" of racism. If you're incapable of it, fine, but don't hide behind bullshit. You write that you don't have time to "enlighten the unenlightenable" and that I'm "not worth the trouble", yet you wrote about 500 words responding to Shovelbum. Stop being a hypocrite and answer the fucking question.

You're acting like a loonbat religious nut that expects everyone to take your statements on faith, as if you somehow have the answers that we don't. A real pity.

[shovelbum]

[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>Speaking of unanswered questions, anyone care to take a stab at why the "language barrier" impedes the progress of African Americans, yet other folks seem to be able to overcome this hurdle in stride with a mother tongue that doesn't have English as it's basis?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[/quote]

thanks for the question! I am only hypothesizing this part, but I think it makes sense and I will take it to my Linguistics professor tomorrow and ask her what she thinks: African American children who are raised in environments where African American Vernacular is commonly spoken are isolated in their community as far as dialect and language is concerned. Currently, there are hardly any programs out there that recognize this and strive to educate these children in the use of standard English. When a person immigrates into this country they either assimilate into the standard English speaking community (and usually they are offered programs to help them master English) or they tuck themselves into their own isolated communities where only their mother tongue is spoken (such as China Town, or Cuban communities in Miami, etc). The ones who learn to assimilate are proof that exposure works; however, most of these African American children I'm describing are not being exposed in a regular fashion.

Just to give you an example, I looked up some of my readings on this subject. In 1997 Jon R. Rickford wrote this article for Discover Magazine. Here is a passage from his article: "At Aurora University outside Chicago, inner-city African American students were taught by an approach that contrasted Standard English and Ebonics features through explicit instruction and drills. [Note they are acknowledging these children need to be taught standard English and are being given specific instruction designed to bridge the language barrier.] After eleven weeks, this group showed a 59% reduction in their use of Ebonics featured in their Standard English writing. But a control group taught by conventional methods [ie- the methods taught universally to all students in all public schools] showed an 8.5% increase in such features."

Sound proof that these students need a specialized education to help them overcome the language hurdle.

If you haven't been to the south, you'd be surprised to learn that these people speak in such a way that it is almost impossible to understand them- it's not the rap/gangsta talk you hear on tv. Imagine what a hard time they have understanding us!

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.

[Bitter Almonds]

[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]

Nimrod? Bonehead? Brainiac? Darwinophobe? Cleopatra, Queen of Denile? Well OK, I'll give you that one, he's been marked by the horus.

Motors, I'm typing my secretive e-mail of support immediately after posting this.

[i]"The only thing I hate (besides brussels sprouts) is haters".[/i] I guess we're going to get along famously.



<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[/quote]

You forgot "Darwinophobe"

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]

Your thoroughness is impressive.
[/quote]

<p align="justify">[:D]

[quote] Speaking of unanswered questions, anyone care to take a stab at why the "language barrier" impedes the progress of African Americans, yet other folks seem to be able to overcome this hurdle in stride with a mother tongue that doesn't have English as it's basis?[/quote]

<p align="justify">'cept for the Latinos... some of 'em live for decades in the US and they still don't speak a lick of English[}:)] It's infuriating and embarrassing (for me as a Latino who speaks English) whenever/wherever I see them expecting a translator. It's one thing if you wanna talk to your family and friends in your native language - I do it all the time, but it's another when you're retarded and don't bother to learn and speak English to communicate with the rest of nation.

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by eight6[/i]
<br>Speaking of unanswered questions, anyone care to take a stab at why the "language barrier" impedes the progress of African Americans, yet other folks seem to be able to overcome this hurdle in stride with a mother tongue that doesn't have English as it's basis?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[/quote]

thanks for the question! I am only hypothesizing this part, but I think it makes sense and I will take it to my Linguistics professor tomorrow and ask her what she thinks: African American children who are raised in environments where African American Vernacular is commonly spoken are isolated in their community as far as dialect and language is concerned. Currently, there are hardly any programs out there that recognize this and strive to educate these children in the use of standard English. When a person immigrates into this country they either assimilate into the standard English speaking community (and usually they are offered programs to help them master English) or they tuck themselves into their own isolated communities where only their mother tongue is spoken (such as China Town, or Cuban communities in Miami, etc). The ones who learn to assimilate are proof that exposure works; however, most of these African American children I'm describing are not being exposed in a regular fashion.

[/quote]

If they're not being sufficiently exposed, they must be putting quite a concerted effort into exposure avoidance. I mean really, even without the education system, the language flows nonstop 24/7 on endless media outlets. Surely, some of it must be absorbed just from the constant bombardment.

[quote]

Just to give you an example, I looked up some of my readings on this subject. In 1997 Jon R. Rickford wrote this article for Discover Magazine. Here is a passage from his article: "At Aurora University outside Chicago, inner-city African American students were taught by an approach that contrasted Standard English and Ebonics features through explicit instruction and drills. [Note they are acknowledging these children need to be taught standard English and are being given specific instruction designed to bridge the language barrier.] After eleven weeks, this group showed a 59% reduction in their use of Ebonics featured in their Standard English writing. But a control group taught by conventional methods [ie- the methods taught universally to all students in all public schools] showed an 8.5% increase in such features."

Sound proof that these students need a specialized education to help them overcome the language hurdle.

If you haven't been to the south, you'd be surprised to learn that these people speak in such a way that it is almost impossible to understand them- it's not the rap/gangsta talk you hear on tv. Imagine what a hard time they have understanding us!

[/quote]

I can't imagine that it is that hard...with some work, I can understand most any attempt at English, no matter how poor. I can appreciate your concern, I just don't see the validity in your scenario. It might just be that I'm an asshole: I expect people to want to try to better themselves, not wait for it to be done for them.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>Another cop-out.
[/quote]Oh for chrissakes Beatschool, like you've never, ever seen Motors take an inflammatory stance around here to rile up the citizenry? He's usually laughing his ass off over the flamage it causes, yet you guys are the ones accusing him of being riled up. Pot, meet fucking kettle! What exactly do you want? For him to "cop out" and laugh you off or continue to be riled up and try to get the last word in all the while you guys accuse him of trying to get the last word in? Why not yell "FREEZE...everybody get down on the ground!!!" I say what's it gonna be young feller? You want he should freeze or get down on the ground? 'Cause if'n he freezes, he can't rightly drop. And if'n he drops, he's gonna be in motion.

I might disagree with the absolute verbiage of what Motors is saying, but I see some of his undertone that that there's too much [i]institutionalized[/i] reverse discrimination and a seemingly greater [i]institutionalized[/i] allowance for minority discrimination against the majority. Beyond that, Motors is just ranting and prodding to me. Big deal, whatever. I just assume forum discussions degenerate into people taking more and more extreme sides just because of the heat of the battle. Sure, we do have much wider spread racism against minorities, but a large part of the population will point to that as not being institutionalized (not officially anyway) while other policies are. I bet that idea alone leads many to say that one thing is not justification for the other and make them vehemently opposed to any kind of equilibrating consideration. This perception has an undisputed negative impact of such policies in many peoples' eyes.

But by YOUR verbiage and tone, I don't see that you're all that concerned with the issue itself nearly as much as with burning Motors. I might tend to agree more with the likes of you and Shovelbum politically, but your brand of egocentric liberalism helps give liberals the bad name and pompous charicature they have IMHO. "Look, I have facts, I have proof, and now I'll go do yoga because I revel in how superior it all feels!!!" Bullshit! You have some info colored by your perceptions just like everyone else, but you assume your stance is FACT while others' cannot possibly be because you're just so damned certain and clever despite being equally devoid of any quoted data. You're just as extreme as your polar opposites and people should have equal disdain for both. No concept of means and ends. It's how conservatives have been able to appeal to the unwashed masses and stay in power.

[shovelbum]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Blir[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>Another cop-out.
[/quote] I might tend to agree more with the likes of you and Shovelbum politically, but your brand of egocentric liberalism helps give liberals the bad name and pompous charicature they have IMHO.

I'm not egocentric. You're just as bad calling that kettle black. If I don't argue, I'm a "twat", but if I do take up the debate I'm egocentric. It is true that all people are culturally ingrained to look upon matters based on their own cultural interpretation. You can't take the culture out of a person. But at least I try to see both sides.

"Look, I have facts, I have proof, and now I'll go do yoga because I revel in how superior it all feels!!!"

I provided facts in an effort to supply data because people asked for it, and because it supports my argument. If I say, "You just have to believe me, so there" then I lose in your book because I'm not interested in "enlightening the unenlightenable". It's interesting to note that YOU are the one who suggested that I thought I was superior just because I provided facts. I provided facts for others benefit, to share knowledge, not to achieve some faux status. You're the one who seems overly concerned with status and superiority. Also, I don't do yoga. I prefer volleyball- a sport based on team cooperation and pure aggression.

Bullshit! You have some info colored by your perceptions just like everyone else, but you assume your stance is FACT while others' cannot possibly be because you're just so damned certain and clever despite being equally devoid of any quoted data.

Huh? You just said I was guilty of introducing fact/data and NOW you say I was devoid of any quoted data? Maybe I misunderstood the rant- can you rephrase for my simple mind?

You're just as extreme as your polar opposites and people should have equal disdain for both. No concept of means and ends. It's how conservatives have been able to appeal to the unwashed masses and stay in power.
[/quote]

Gray is a good area when it comes to empathy and tolerance, but nothing gets done in life, nothing achieved without drive and ambition. You can't say I don't have a concept of means and ends when I propose that specialized language education can help make a difference. I may be wrong, but at least I am trying to find a means to an end!!! All you've done is bitch and fuss. How do you suggest we fix the problem- oh wait, maybe you don't have any time to think about it because you are too busy making sure that no one else is as superior as yourself?

And by the way, this is just a casual debate- so why are you so hot and bothered? Sound like a personal problem to me. It's not my shit, so I don't really care.

As for conservatives staying in power- I'm sorry, who's in Congress now?????

So unless you have something really provocative to add, something that lends to the good of humanity, something positive, then why don't you go strike a yoga pose and get a hold of yourself, man!

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.

[eight6]

[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by Blir[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>Another cop-out.
[/quote] I might tend to agree more with the likes of you and Shovelbum politically, but your brand of egocentric liberalism helps give liberals the bad name and pompous charicature they have IMHO.

I'm not egocentric. You're just as bad calling that kettle black. If I don't argue, I'm a "twat", but if I do take up the debate I'm egocentric. It is true that all people are culturally ingrained to look upon matters based on their own cultural interpretation. You can't take the culture out of a person. But at least I try to see both sides.

"Look, I have facts, I have proof, and now I'll go do yoga because I revel in how superior it all feels!!!"

I provided facts in an effort to supply data because people asked for it, and because it supports my argument. If I say, "You just have to believe me, so there" then I lose in your book because I'm not interested in "enlightening the unenlightenable". It's interesting to note that YOU are the one who suggested that I thought I was superior just because I provided facts. I provided facts for others benefit, to share knowledge, not to achieve some faux status. You're the one who seems overly concerned with status and superiority. Also, I don't do yoga. I prefer volleyball- a sport based on team cooperation and pure aggression.

Bullshit! You have some info colored by your perceptions just like everyone else, but you assume your stance is FACT while others' cannot possibly be because you're just so damned certain and clever despite being equally devoid of any quoted data.

Huh? You just said I was guilty of introducing fact/data and NOW you say I was devoid of any quoted data? Maybe I misunderstood the rant- can you rephrase for my simple mind?

You're just as extreme as your polar opposites and people should have equal disdain for both. No concept of means and ends. It's how conservatives have been able to appeal to the unwashed masses and stay in power.
[/quote]

Gray is a good area when it comes to empathy and tolerance, but nothing gets done in life, nothing achieved without drive and ambition. You can't say I don't have a concept of means and ends when I propose that specialized language education can help make a difference. I may be wrong, but at least I am trying to find a means to an end!!! All you've done is bitch and fuss. How do you suggest we fix the problem- oh wait, maybe you don't have any time to think about it because you are too busy making sure that no one else is as superior as yourself?

And by the way, this is just a casual debate- so why are you so hot and bothered? Sound like a personal problem to me. It's not my shit, so I don't really care.

As for conservatives staying in power- I'm sorry, who's in Congress now?????

So unless you have something really provocative to add, something that lends to the good of humanity, something positive, then why don't you go strike a yoga pose and get a hold of yourself, man!

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
[/quote]

This post is confusing...I don't know who is saying what. When I played hockey, we were always in fear we would cross paths with an angry mob of volleyballers, such is the level of their aggression..

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/dbince/086scan.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>Gray is a good area when it comes to empathy and tolerance, but nothing gets done in life, nothing achieved without drive and ambition. You can't say I don't have a concept of means and ends when I propose that specialized language education can help make a difference. I may be wrong, but at least I am trying to find a means to an end!!! All you've done is bitch and fuss. How do you suggest we fix the problem- oh wait, maybe you don't have any time to think about it because you are too busy making sure that no one else is as superior as yourself?[/quote]
Who have you convinced besides yourself? An end isn't just stating something. That's laughable and delusional. It's getting people to listen and having some sort of impact. Go read something like Dr. King's <a href="http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf">Letter From Birmingham Jail</a> to begin to get the slightest clue of how an effective champion might communicate. Hint: walking into a room and immediatley spewing isn't it. Have you considered my polarized reaction as a part of the reflection of your failure to accomplish anything except let out hot air? And I'm not the one coming onto a new wave site and immediately claiming I have something to accomplish...except express my disdain for a windbag.
[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>And by the way, this is just a casual debate- so why are you so hot and bothered? Sound like a personal problem to me. It's not my shit, so I don't really care.[/quote]
Why would I be bothered when I can instead arrogantly sit back and laugh at your cluenessness? Comical. Thank you for THAt contribution at least.
[quote][i]Originally posted by shovelbum[/i]
<br>As for conservatives staying in power- I'm sorry, who's in Congress now?????
[/quote]
You really believe that? That the liberals really reign in the true halls of power in this country? I wish, but even my wildest hopes wouldn't be that deluded. Thanks for reinforcing my sad disillusionment with the liberal cause. What a mess. [V]

[WolverineSyr]

I don't buy the "other dialects held me back" argument. Are we to presume that seperate textbooks be made? Seperate classes? Seperate job applications?

Would that not only further the divide? My family & especially my extended family are pretty rural. They have a weird vernacular that might not be recognizable to others - but they accomodate their language to the audience. It's not that hard to do & it's not hard to learn.

I'm not big on special rules for special people. I'm well aware of my privilege in life as a white male - but I would be willing to extend that to anyone (as I think most everyone here would too.) I think if you don't like racism, then recognize what privilege our culture gives you & how you can share that with other people.

With that also comes an element of playing by the percieved rules of the broader culture & a common language is one of them.

[MARV]

I fucking hate anything that enables ignorance and stupidity. Like I said, these people need to get the hell OUT of their shit-ass environment and make some real moves if they want any real change in their lives. I don't give a rat's how hard it is. People come to the US on rafts FFS without a word of English - ANY dialect. These island people are U.S. citizens and have access to some great programs funded by those of us in a 40% tax bracket for which we work 60-70 hours a week to be in.

Oh and Blir, just in case you haven't heard.....liberalism is DEAD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>Oh and Blir, just in case you haven't heard.....liberalism is DEAD:
[/quote]
And so is conservatism...unless you think a $9 trillion national debt and a civil liberties policy to make Islamic mullahs proud is "conservative"? There's people called liberals and conservatives, but they mostly ain't either these days.

[beatschool]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Blir[/i]
<br>

I might disagree with the absolute verbiage of what Motors is saying, but I see some of his undertone that that there's too much institutionalized reverse discrimination and a seemingly greater institutionalized allowance for minority discrimination against the majority.[/quote]

Quite a leap to say that institutionalized discrimination and that "70% of whites are discriminated against" are the same thing. Maybe you have a greater understanding of his "undertone" than I do, but I'm just not reading it the same way as you.

[quote]Beyond that, Motors is just ranting and prodding to me. Big deal, whatever. I just assume forum discussions degenerate into people taking more and more extreme sides
just because of the heat of the battle.[/quote]

I give long-time members as little leeway with their comments as you give the noobs. If he wants to make a stupid statement, I'm happy to make a big deal over it. That seems to be one of my roles on this site.

[quote]Sure, we do have much wider spread racism against minorities, but a large part of the population will point to that as not being institutionalized (not officially anyway) while other policies are. I bet that idea alone leads many to say that one thing is not justification for the other and make them vehemently opposed to any kind of equilibrating consideration. This perception has an undisputed negative impact of such policies in many peoples' eyes.[/quote]

While I agree with what you are saying, there seems to be a tacit acceptance by the majority of people (not a racial majority, but a numerical majority) of just the surface level of this argument. Isn't it our role to try and point out the shades of grey?

[quote]But by YOUR verbiage and tone, I don't see that you're all that concerned with the issue itself nearly as much as with burning Motors.[/quote]

Based on the email I sent Motors, you're completely wrong, but thanks for assuming.

When someone makes a retarded statement and I call them on it and it isn't egocentrism that's driving it. I was looking for something, anything that supported his statement. I received nothing. If someone came on here and claimed that the holocaust never happened, I'd do the same.

The only point I really care about making is the overuse of the word "victim", a particular sore point for me. We are living in a world of so-called "victims" these days, people that are yearning to be looked at as underdogs or oppressed so they can garner some measure of sympathy. This spans from leftist idiots to the "angry white man" conservatives in my family. Frankly it exhausts me.

[quote] I might tend to agree more with the likes of you and Shovelbum politically, but your brand of egocentric liberalism helps give liberals the bad name and pompous charicature they have IMHO. "Look, I have facts, I have proof, and now I'll go do yoga because I revel in how superior it all feels!!!" Bullshit![/quote]

Egocentric liberalism? Are you describing the own fart-sniffing, Prius-owning types from South Park? Interesting assumption you make about me. It clearly shows the power of the written word to confuse. Put me in a room of San Francisco liberals and I guarantee you I will offend and anger most of the room when speaking. I think I'm a little more complicated than the stereotype you used, but since you don't know me, stereotype away. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests or be part of the NWO gang. That ain't what floats my boat.

[quote]You have some info colored by your perceptions just like everyone else, but you assume your stance is FACT while others' cannot possibly be because you're just so damned certain and clever despite being equally devoid of any quoted data. You're just as extreme as your polar opposites and people should have equal disdain for both. No concept of means and ends. It's how conservatives have been able to appeal to the unwashed masses and stay in power.
[/quote]

I'm unclear where I was stating anything as fact. Please point it our for me.

Finally, I appreciate you misguidedly lumping me in with Shovelbum. I challenge you to find a single word of support in any of my posts towards her or her argument. If you'll look at earlier posts of mine, you'll find that I strongly disagree with the case she's trying to make. I'll argue with her in time. For now, I'd just like something that supports Motors statement.

Head spinning. Must go take a dump.

PS - I am way too fat and not nearly limber enough for yoga. Can I revel in my "liberal" superiority while bowling?

PSS - When did I fall in love with using quotes?

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Blir[/i]
<br>And so is conservatism.[/quote]

Hey, I can COMPLETELY live with that. This country has become polarized to every level of perversity. Just because I may not come across as liberal doesn't mean I'm the complete opposite either. That's how fucked things are. People have lost the ability to see shades of gray. Only a simpleton would think in terms of black and white. When and why did people think that life was that simple? Like a comic book?

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by beatschool[/i]
<br>Head spinning. Must go take a dump.[/quote]

Save some toilet paper for Hutter. I have a feeling he'll probably be joining the fray soon enough.

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>